DUST Search - New Amarr scout primary & secondary bonuses( ideas wanted)

Summ Dude wrote:

John Demonsbane wrote:

Very true. Instead of just spitballing random bonuses that sound good, perhaps a defined role would help focus the discussion. So is this suit:

A light assault suit?
A flanker/infiltrator suit?
Something else?

Personally I plan to use it as a flanker/infiltrator suit, a better version of the fossil BPO (which is the old type 2) I currently use. With that bias in mind, I like the idea of a bonus to uplinks of some kind, or improving the speed bonus somehow, like instead of a basic cardiac reg you get a complex or better at proto, or maybe an enhanced cardiac and an enhanced kin cat, perhaps.

On the other hand, if you picture it as a light assault, which might not be totally out of line with Dust Amarr battle philosophy if you think about it, then perhaps a bonus to the ScP or, using your example of a "long range weapon" bonus, perhaps this should be a suit designed for the "new and improved" LR. Give it some type of bonus to LR heat buildup or even range.

Yea I've always thought of the Amarr combat philosophy as "stay in lines and keep moving forward slowly but surely", so a light assault doesn't seem too far off. Also, wasn't there supposed to maybe be a LR hotfix before 1.8?


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Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:29:00 - [1] - Quote Yeah, make it complex level at scout 5. There has to be something more interesting than stamina though. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:41:00 - [2] - Quote The Caldari and Gallente scouts are geared up to fight each other. The Minmatar will have evolved their scout to specifically counter the Amarr. What aspect of an Amarr scouts makes sense to be the opposite of the Minmatar? // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:54:00 - [3] - Quote If the Matari scout is about covert, guerrilla operations maybe the Amarr should be overt, bringing the light of God to the unclean. Since their logistics will be specializing in uplinks maybe the scout should instead be a combat oriented scout specializing in scrambler tech. Headshot bonus for assassination? Take the already deadly scrambler weapons and really amp up the single, aimed shot potential? This relates to the backstabbing nature of the Matari knifers. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:55:00 - [4] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Make them sabotage specialists: 5%/level to stamina and 10%/level to vehicles damage on remote explosives/proxi mines. Edit: uplinks should be a Logi bonus. It's stupid to have 2 types of suits with the same bonus. Sabotage is the Minmatar domain. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:59:00 - [5] - Quote What is the current headshot bonus with scramblers? // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2626	Posted - 2014.01.18 04:06:00 - [6] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Make them sabotage specialists: 5%/level to stamina and 10%/level to vehicles damage on remote explosives/proxi mines. Edit: uplinks should be a Logi bonus. It's stupid to have 2 types of suits with the same bonus. Sabotage is the Minmatar domain. So is hacking and assassination apparently. The Amarr scout needs some interesting role besides being able to run very slowly for a long timeGÇª Here I am, trying to come up with something for my sworn enemy to be proud of. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2627	Posted - 2014.01.18 04:24:00 - [7] - Quote I think I gave my best idea. The Amarr are fairly one dimensional. Absorb damage and deal it. Their scouts could be hit men. Cloak up, aim and shoot in the head. Where the Minmatar have to fight dirty to throw off the yoke of their slave masters the Amarr simply execute those that refuse to convert in a very cold and calculated manner. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2632	Posted - 2014.01.18 15:45:00 - [8] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Why not a % bonus to the hp of ferroscale armor? I like this idea. Another plate related one would be to reduce the speed penalty of plates. "Through the use of advanced servos and load balancing the Amarr Scout, at skill level 5, can fit complex plates with no loss of mobility." The Ferroscale plates idea would probably be easier to justify and to provide a bonus for though. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2640	Posted - 2014.01.18 19:00:00 - [9] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: I think any bonus to tanking (ferroscale, etc.) would be misguided. Scouts aren't supposed to be tanking roles, and you're starting in the hole somewhat as it stands since the closest assault (Minmatar) is slightly faster than you, has more slots, and more hp. The stamina bonus, while meager, at least works on a similar theory of utility/mobility. Something related to putting people down while not necessarily tanking (scrambler or weapon bonuses), sprint/kincat, etc. bonuses make more sense than just trying to make the Amarr Scout into a crappier assault suit. They haven't published the new, proposed assault stats yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the speeds on them. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2647	Posted - 2014.01.19 02:58:00 - [10] - Quote There are some interesting ideas here but I think the core concept that must be decided is what is the role for this suit. We know that Gal and Cal are going head to head in stealth warfare. Should the Amarr compete against the Minmatar guerrillas or will they do their own thing? What roles are open to scouts of any race? Recon? Seems like the Gal and Cal roles. Pathfinder? Seems like a good idea but overlaps with Amarr logistics. Maybe that suit is in the wrong role and the uplink focus should switch to this one. This has been mentioned a few times and I do agree. What would the focus of the logistics be if the scout took over uplinks? Assassin? The role of the Minmatar but head to head stealth slayers does appeal to me as I've already suggested. I just don't know how to provide an appropriate bonus. Guerrilla fighter? Not their style. Sniper? The Amarr don't have a native sniper weapon yet. Maybe provide something generic for long range engagements. Game design is hard. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana

Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2648	Posted - 2014.01.19 03:08:00 - [11] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The idea with the uplinks is that they don't replace the logi role, but instead are a different type of uplink placer, as they open a gateway for discreet assault on a position, without the enemy knowing Seems legit to me. Maybe combine it with another bonus such as an improved stamina than currently suggested. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2648	Posted - 2014.01.19 03:46:00 - [12] - Quote Summ Dude wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Very true. Instead of just spitballing random bonuses that sound good, perhaps a defined role would help focus the discussion. So is this suit: A light assault suit? A flanker/infiltrator suit? Something else? Personally I plan to use it as a flanker/infiltrator suit, a better version of the fossil BPO (which is the old type 2) I currently use. With that bias in mind, I like the idea of a bonus to uplinks of some kind, or improving the speed bonus somehow, like instead of a basic cardiac reg you get a complex or better at proto, or maybe an enhanced cardiac and an enhanced kin cat, perhaps. On the other hand, if you picture it as a light assault, which might not be totally out of line with Dust Amarr battle philosophy if you think about it, then perhaps a bonus to the ScP or, using your example of a "long range weapon" bonus, perhaps this should be a suit designed for the "new and improved" LR. Give it some type of bonus to LR heat buildup or even range. Yea I've always thought of the Amarr combat philosophy as "stay in lines and keep moving forward slowly but surely", so a light assault doesn't seem too far off. Also, wasn't there supposed to maybe be a LR hotfix before 1.8? The scouts become the flanking escort (aka outriders) for the for the assaults and heavies picking off those that attempt to flee using their range optimization subsystems? When they encounter resistance then the main force moves into deal with it. "I'm not running you down, slave. I'll just burn you from here." Escort role. Interesting idea. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2649	Posted - 2014.01.19 04:00:00 - [13] - Quote Summ Dude wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: The scouts become the flanking escort (aka outriders) for the for the assaults and heavies picking off those that attempt to flee using their range optimization subsystems? When they encounter resistance then the main force moves into deal with it. "I'm not running you down, slave. I'll just burn you from here." Escort role. Interesting idea. Now that's something I can definitely get behind. Edit: So now what kind of bonus would help cement the role of picking of the stragglers? Increase range so they don't have to run them down? I'm not sure that is in the current game code and we don't want it delayed. I also like the suggestions from earlier for either increasing the efficacy of the ferroscale plates or removing the speed penalty of normal plates. The Amarr are all about armor buffer. The benefit of their scout is retaining movement speed without losing that ability. Since the scout should be well ahead or to the flank of logistics you don't want them to have to return for repairs or waiting in cover for slow armor repair to do its thing. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2649	Posted - 2014.01.19 04:07:00 - [14] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Summ Dude wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: The scouts become the flanking escort (aka outriders) for the for the assaults and heavies picking off those that attempt to flee using their range optimization subsystems? When they encounter resistance then the main force moves into deal with it. "I'm not running you down, slave. I'll just burn you from here." Escort role. Interesting idea. Now that's something I can definitely get behind. Edit: So now what kind of bonus would help cement the role of picking of the stragglers? Well, stamina/sprint to run after them. A range bonus would make it easier to hit them. Though a range bonus to scrambler rifles might be overpowered. A range bonus to scrambler pistols... possibly too niche? I'd like it, but I don't know if everyone likes the pistol. I agree that the headshot bonus would be too much considering how high it is already. I prefer the expanded clip, as it makes weapons like the burst more useful, but is just generally useful too. Back to stamina. That's funny. However, It would work if increased to match the complex green bottle at scout 5. With the current headshot bonus you have to land at least two hits to match a set of fully charged Nova Knives. I agree that is not that difficult and a bonus may be too much. I had forgotten he scrambler headshot bonus was 450%. I think my preference is still towards altering armor modules to be more appropriate for scouts to stick to their doctrine. It is the most durable scout with the currently proposed stats and letting it keep its lead after all of them start adding modules is not a bad thing. It would help with the light assault role that some want too. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2649	Posted - 2014.01.19 04:26:00 - [15] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: I also think there should be some penalty, like 2% at proto level. But thats just because they provide so much health with no real consequences Fitting should naturally limit that but maybe limit the bonus to Ferroscale and Reactive. Instead, it could be a fitting bonus so penalties are still present but they are easier to squeeze on to the scout frame, especially with the high fitting requirements of the Ferroscale and Reactive. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2649	Posted - 2014.01.19 04:29:00 - [16] - Quote I'm trying to think of bonuses that can be added as an attribute in the database and doesn't require changing game code. It seems to expedite things dramatically. I'd have to dig through the SDE but I think a fitting bonus to all armor plates may be the easiest thing to do. Then increase the stamina bonus to something not sucky and you'll have the best defensive scout with the ability to run places, eventually. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2650	Posted - 2014.01.19 05:10:00 - [17] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: I'm trying to think of bonuses that can be added as an attribute in the database and doesn't require changing game code. It seems to expedite things dramatically. I'd have to dig through the SDE but I think a fitting bonus to all armor plates may be the easiest thing to do. Then increase the stamina bonus to something not sucky and you'll have the best defensive scout with the ability to run places, eventually. I like you, you understand the Amarr. Know thy enemy. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2661	Posted - 2014.01.19 17:40:00 - [18] - Quote We don't have to address the pure scout part of the Amarr suit. The attributes and ability to efficiently carry a cloak give them their disruptive ability. What we are trying to help CCP decide on is that little bit extra to give them their personality. Is pure stamina enough? Boring but useful if the values are increased. Assassination using their native weapon? Already very powerful but a possibility. Ability to stand toe to toe with a heavier frame once the cloak drops? Could be very useful. Drop uplinks to bring in friends? Sure, sounds good. What extra bonus makes them disruptive in Amarr style? // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2661	Posted - 2014.01.19 18:33:00 - [19] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Going the Assasin route seems to be the next best role to me. Assasins don't need tank, they need stealth and damage. Either a cloaking bonus on the most "technologically advanced" race or a bonus to the scrambler pistol would be the logical choices. Headshot bonuses seem cool, but I suspect if you add up the amount of damage this adds at the end of a round, it will be a small fraction of what the total damage increase is from the nova knife damage bonus the Minmatar get. You'd have to get dozens of ScP headshots per match for that bonus to be very useful. The clip size increase bonus makes going for the headshot a more viable tactic, since misses aren't quite so punishing with the existing small clips. The assassin role is my personal favorite and one I think matches the Amarr the best. It currently takes about two pistol head shots to do a comparable amount of damage to a single fully charge nova knife attack. The issue I now have with increasing that damage is that the pistol has some really nice range to it with makes it significantly more powerful than the nova knives. The reason I support giving the Amarr a defensive bonus and allowing them to wear armor without drawbacks is to allow them to make one covert attack and then be able to survive long enough to lengthen that attack and cause further disruption or to retreat. If we are to go the gentleman assassin route with a scrambler pistol as their weapon of choice you want them to operate independently behind enemy lines for as long as possible. Carrying as much ammo as possible without dropping supply hives that reveal your position is a good idea. There will be enough slots for armor repair but some innate armor repair would not be overpowered. Give them +20% stamina regeneration and +10 scrambler pistol rounds of maximum ammo per level. They can then have the equivalent of a complex green bottle, which I think most agree is fair, and 50 extra shots per pistol that is carried for long term operations. Add in 1 HP/s of armor repair to give them the only self-repairing Amarr suit on the field. They'll have two slots for equipment so they can still bring uplinks along with their cloak or whatever else suits their fancy. Write up some lore about them being the immortal clone version of some slave hunter government organization. They are the relentless hunters that appear from the shadows and shoot you in the head with their holy handguns. Sort of like the Black Eagles but backed by the church. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2663	Posted - 2014.01.19 20:46:00 - [20] - Quote I applaud all contributors to this thread for a good debate and constructive comments. If this doesn't kick off some discussion between the CPM and CCP I'll be very disappointed. Only CCP knows where this will end but I'm hoping this will make the scout war between the Minmatar and the Amarr a good one. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana