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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5581
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Posted - 2014.01.16 05:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: (1) Shield depleted delay is so tiny that it's barely a factor, and just one basic regulator usually covers it.(2) It incentivizes the use of regulators instead of dual tanking both shields and armor, which was a balance issue. (3)So quit whining and use a regulator instead of trying to dual tank.
(4)Shields may have less HP, but their penalty is still almost a non-factor, and they auto-regen.(5) Armor does not auto-regen, meaning you have to stack like 3 complex armor repairers and use up lts of PG/CPU and slots to get a comparable regen rate.
(6)Almost one uses complex plates because of the speed penalty, and you want to raise the penalty? lol.
NOPE
* recites the incantation to summon Cat Merc and Arkena * 1-Its still an Unnecessary NERF. Plus, the main reason for shield extenders is that you DONT have to spend a Low on an Armor repairer. If i have to equip a Regulator in order for them to work then whats the point again? 2-What? Who in their right minds will prefer using a REGULATOR over an Armor plate. Lol. Only Cal Logis,and Just MAYBE... 3- first, im not whining, you aggressive stance tells me you armor tank quite a lot so im not sure i can take your comments seriously in the matter of balance.Second, i only Shield+Profile tank. I dont dual tank anymore and i never Armor tanked. 4-They have less than -+ HP of their armor counterparts while having an almost meaningless penalty SAME as the speed ones the ARMOR PLATES have.Auto regen is not very impressive if it doesnt work while under fire or it takes to long to start regenerating. (PLUS the penalty to shield regen) 5- LOGIS. Logis only need 1 Armor rep (if you want accelerated Rep) to repair similar values to shields. See,armor NEVER stops regenerating, in those 10+ seconds my depleted Shield took to start regenerating the armor already has a 100+ HP lead. Which, ironically enough,makes armor better at quick hit and run tactics than shields. So, even with less regen, no REGEN delay compensates. You know this, you are just trying to defend you EZ mode armor plates. 6-Nope, almost NO ONE uses the Complex armor plate because the LOW PENALTY BASIC AND ENH have compared to preformance. With my proposed changes,sacrificing 2% to gt Cx over Enh is a possibility. THERE IS A REASON, most people armor tank EVEN while every weapon now hits Armor hard. There is a reason SCOUTS and speedy units prefer armor plates instead of Shields and Ferroscale, you know, the ones desinged for conserving SPEED? There is a reason, Logis are the best suit in the game. A R M O R penalties, are MEANINGLESS.
2- I do, my shields recharge freakishly fast on my Caldari Assault, I don't even care about that extra HP. Plus I like the speed on my Caldari assault, the difference is very noticeable between my Gallente and Caldari assaults.
3- And that is exactly why you should not talk about armor vs shields balance. YOU NEVER ARMOR TANKED. You have no clue how the suits, plates and repairers work in actual gameplay outside of stats. I did, the balance works.
4- First off, my Gallente Assault has 504 armor. Do you know how much shields my Caldari assault has? 479. I stack dual enhanced plates on my Gallente Assault, so yeah. (And no the speed penalty isn't why I don't use complex plates, it's because the CPU/PG --> HP output is completely borked, and I can't fit then anyway even if they were good)
5- So... You expect a solo tank to work better than a tank that requires multiple people? Seems legit.
Anyway, that's exactly where regulators come in, armor has a lead of 2 seconds on me before I start recharging at 31hp/s :3
6- Explained above. Speed penalty isn't the issue, the issue is the CPU/PG --> HP output.
Plus unlike shield tankers, I can't use CPU/PG extenders without sacrificing HEAVILY my tank.
Because of the way armor tanking works, if you use even ONE low slot for anything other than armor modules, you're gimped as ****.
I armor tank because it fits my playstyle.
Passive aggressive assaulting.
Shields are like the uber aggressive mode.
Scouts don't use ferroscale and reactive plates because:
A. They suck ass
B. Their CPU/PG requirements are so freakishly high that their already low CPU/PG can't allow that
Logis are the best suit in the game because of slots, bonuses and CPU/PG.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5583
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 05:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
1 point of armor HP =/= 1 point of shield HP. Shields are slightly more resistant to damage than armor since most weapons are made to kill armor. On top of that armor is slower so it's more susceptible to aim assist and easier to aim at. Most people armor tank because Damage mods are the fotm not armor...
I do see your point there, with the Damage Mods and all.
But people MIGHT consider dropping the Damage mod Stack for 1 Dam Mod and SHIELDS if the Penalty for armor plates were more Severe.
More weapons hitting armor isnt a problem since the bonuses usually go up to 10% (20% Being non used niche weapons FP and Mass D) vs the still pretty popular Laser rifles, that do 20% vs shields.
How bad can it be the enemy's weapon does 10% more to your armor when you have 50% more HP?
AND Basically the SAME speed?
That's where you're wrong.
IF you have 50% more HP, THEN YOUR SPEED IS MUCH MORE LOW!
Even with HP matching the average proto caldari suit, my speed is noticeably lower, slowing me down a lot.
In fact I was in a PC match where my team was wiping the floor before I could even get to a place, they were shield tanked.
In the end I went 2/0 because I only saw two enemies, the rest were dead by the time I got to a place.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5584
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 05:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
2- I do, my shields recharge freakishly fast on my Caldari Assault, I don't even care about that extra HP. Plus I like the speed on my Caldari assault, the difference is very noticeable between my Gallente and Caldari assaults.
2/ Well good for you. I cant feel any difference in my Cal logi , the one with regulators and the one with Armor plates.
So you are talking about a personal experience here,not a fact.
3- And that is exactly why you should not talk about armor vs shields balance. YOU NEVER ARMOR TANKED. You have no clue how the suits, plates and repairers work in actual gameplay outside of stats. I did, the balance works.
3/ The fact i don't EXCLUSIVLEY armor tank does not mean i dont know anything about armor tanking. I have everything armor related at level 5 and i have DUAL tanked Cal logis and amarr assaults,and currently use Armor plates on everything,even some scout loadouts.
4- First off, my Gallente Assault has 504 armor. Do you know how much shields my Caldari assault has? 479. I stack dual enhanced plates on my Gallente Assault, so yeah. (And no the speed penalty isn't why I don't use complex plates, it's because the CPU/PG --> HP output is completely borked, and I can't fit then anyway even if they were good)
4/So 2 Dual enhanced Armor plates STILL give you more HP than , how much? 3-4 Compelx shield ext?....
Seems fair. for those 6%- speed penalty LOL.
5- So... You expect a solo tank to work better than a tank that requires multiple people? Seems legit.
Anyway, that's exactly where regulators come in, armor has a lead of 2 seconds on me before I start recharging at 31hp/s :3
5/If you survive the engagement vs a highly HP tanked enemy that is.Which, thanks to AA chances are against you.
Plus the fact Basic and ENH armor plates do the job better than complex Shields, it means even MORE than just a miserable Speed loss.It means LESS CPU/PG usage,there by better high modules/weapon/equipment.
6- Explained above. Speed penalty isn't the issue, the issue is the CPU/PG --> HP output.
Plus unlike shield tankers, I can't use CPU/PG extenders without sacrificing HEAVILY my tank.
Because of the way armor tanking works, if you use even ONE low slot for anything other than armor modules, you're gimped as ****.
6/ This is actually not redundant. You talk about CPU-PG enhancers? Well i say the same for caldari suits,they cannot equip Damage mods easily unless sacrificing HP.Not to mention since you can just equip BASIC ARMOR PLATES (10 CPU 1-PG) And save a LOT of CPU and PG so you dont need to use CPU and PG extenders.
ON THE OTHER side of the coin, The only shield extender worth it is the COMPLEX one....
Scouts don't use ferroscale and reactive plates because:
A. They suck ass
B. Their CPU/PG requirements are so freakishly high that their already low CPU/PG can't allow that
TRUE that.
maybe a good nerf to Armor plates would be a good reduction in CPU-PG usage for both reactive and Ferroscale plates....
.
2- Look above for my exprience in a PC match in a slow ass Gallente assault
3- Again, that's not pure armor tanking. There is a difference in the way those suits behave.
4- 3 complex shield extenders. Mind you, my skills aren't maxed for shields, I could probably get to at least 500 HP.
I would also like to mention that my Caldari suit is much better overall outside of HP and regen, it has a duvolle, a proto hive, core locus, and an advanced SMG while my Gallente is stuck with a GEK, K2, M1 locus and a syndicate SMG.
And yes 6% speed IS a lot when you consider that the HP difference is next to nothing in the end.
If I replace those two enhanced armor plates with complex I would get 559. OH MY GOD IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!
5- Enhanced plates suck arse too actually in terms of CPU/PG, it's just that in order to compete at the higher end armor tanks have to use those.
I agree that basics are a wee bit ridiculous.
I would much prefer it if armor went 55/82/165 as it more closely resembles shields in terms of HP increase.
Now before you say anything about the HP values being too high, what I did was took shields HP and did 2.5x.
Armor has to use up half of it's slots for regen, and the HP ceiling is supposed to be higher.
6- Basic plates just aren't competitive enough at the higher end since you have to fit armor repairers too, but other than that yes, look above.
And what you save on plates you will have taken back from you with armor repairers, those are expensive as **** in any way you look at it and you have to fit complex or else you have a **** regen.
BTW That Caldari fit I'm talking about? Has a complex damage mod.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5584
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 05:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
That's where you're wrong.
IF you have 50% more HP, THEN YOUR SPEED IS MUCH MORE LOW!
Even with HP matching the average proto caldari suit, my speed is noticeably lower, slowing me down a lot.
In fact I was in a PC match where my team was wiping the floor before I could even get to a place, they were shield tanked.
In the end I went 2/0 because I only saw two enemies, the rest were dead by the time I got to a place.
Again, you say you can feel the speed loss.
I say i cant.
We are both talking about OUR speed perception.
Neither are facts.
The Fact is Armor plates are the FTW FOTM module.
Nothing you say will change that.
Except that in every PC match, everything is shields except for the logis. I wonder why :P
And it's not perception, it's factual, my speed is 0.6m/s slower than a Caldari suit.
That's like the difference between an assault and a scout.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5585
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 06:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
2- Look above for my exprience in a PC match in a slow ass Gallente assault
>>>>>>>> You think thats slow ass because you never ran a 500hp Commando XD
Still too fast for the HP value they have.
Anything with ABOVE 700 HP,should not run faster than 6.2 m/s....
4- 3 complex shield extenders. Mind you, my skills aren't maxed for shields, I could probably get to at least 500 HP.
I would also like to mention that my Caldari suit is much better overall outside of HP and regen, it has a duvolle, a proto hive, core locus, and an advanced SMG while my Gallente is stuck with a GEK, K2, M1 locus and a syndicate SMG.
And yes 6% speed IS a lot when you consider that the HP difference is next to nothing in the end.
If I replace those two enhanced armor plates with complex I would get 559. OH MY GOD IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!
>>>>>.......So you are ok with 3 COMPLEX shield extenders having LESS HP value, than 2 ENH armor plates.
5- Enhanced plates suck arse too actually in terms of CPU/PG, it's just that in order to compete at the higher end armor tanks have to use those.
I agree that basics are a wee bit ridiculous.
I would much prefer it if armor went 55/82/165 as it more closely resembles shields in terms of HP increase.
Now before you say anything about the HP values being too high, what I did was took shields HP and did 2.5x.
Armor has to use up half of it's slots for regen, and the HP ceiling is supposed to be higher.
>>>>>>>>I will from now on consider you biased in this issue.165 HP?LOL.
More like 40 - 80 - 120 HP...lol
6- Basic plates just aren't competitive enough at the higher end since you have to fit armor repairers too, but other than that yes, look above.
>>>>>>>Its been PROVEN,taht combat wise Higher HP value > Higher regen value.
So having 500 Armor and 5HP per sec is alway going to be better than having 380 HP and 10 REP.
PROVEN DUST514 FACT.
Sure, AA has a lot to do with this,but its still a fact.
Imagine you have a clone, with your exact skill level,exact character,exact aiming capabilities,etc...
The Cat Merc with 500 HP with 5 REP will come on top of your 380HP 10 HP REGEN Fit AND your caldari 6% faster suit with 31 Shield regen per sec,...lol
And what you save on plates you will have taken back from you with armor repairers, those are expensive as **** in any way you look at it and you have to fit complex or else you have a **** regen.
BTW That Caldari fit I'm talking about? Has a complex damage mod.
>>>>>>>>ONE DAMAGE MOD?! how many does your GAl has? And even stuck with a gek you will end up doing MORE damage while being cheaper AND having more HP,for a mer 6% speed
2. But my Caldari suit is almost 700 HP total... So you're saying that it should be running at 6.2m/s?
3. Yes because in the end even with that the Caldari suit still came out on top lawl
5. Well, you said it yourself, you don't pure armor tank. I do, I also pure shield tank, so I guess I'm less biased than you? :P
Also, a more correct thing would be 132 HP for complex, since 66 * 2 = 132, not 120.
6. Proven how? By people whining on the forums? Yes HP is important to survive all of the alpha, but if it takes three minutes to regenerate what does it matter?
500 HP with 5 rep vs 380 HP with 10 rep. Honestly depends on what I want to do.
The first one takes 100 seconds for a full repair, the second takes 38 seconds.
And no, it won't come out on top, because I can use the regen to my advantage you dope. It's like whining you can't insta kill a heavy in a scout suit.
And the Caldari WOULD win because it's 6% faster, has 31hp/s AND has the same HP. :P
My Gallente Assault has two damage mods.
Caldari Assault one with a duvolle.
Gallente Assault two with a GEK.
DPS difference is 5%, but Caldari has less dispersion and more range.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5585
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 06:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cat Merc wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
That's where you're wrong.
IF you have 50% more HP, THEN YOUR SPEED IS MUCH MORE LOW!
Even with HP matching the average proto caldari suit, my speed is noticeably lower, slowing me down a lot.
In fact I was in a PC match where my team was wiping the floor before I could even get to a place, they were shield tanked.
In the end I went 2/0 because I only saw two enemies, the rest were dead by the time I got to a place.
Again, you say you can feel the speed loss.
I say i cant.
We are both talking about OUR speed perception.
Neither are facts.
The Fact is Armor plates are the FTW FOTM module.
Nothing you say will change that. Except that in every PC match, everything is shields except for the logis. I wonder why :P And it's not perception, it's factual, my speed is 0.6m/s slower than a Caldari suit. That's like the difference between an assault and a scout. WEll people in
PC those PC matches you play need to Flux. LOL
AND. 0.6 m/s wont save you from AA.So its nothing.
That's because you're using it wrong.
I'm sorry but it sounds to me like your play style fits armor more than shields rather than shields being straight up underpowered.
If you can't take advantage of 0.6m/s then you're hopeless in this conversation.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5585
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 06:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Would also like to point out that you keep saying stuff in 1v1 terms.
That regen REALLY helps when you need to get into consecutive fights quickly, letting you push forward.
On a Gallente Assault if you're wounded, you're out of the fight for a while unless you have a Logi, in which case you have to run back for him and request reps while the rest move forward.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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