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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3133
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Posted - 2014.01.12 18:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think Dust might be better served by a suit/role/skill bonus somewhat more similar to EVE, and this is relevant to the current suit bonus discussion. This also ties in with making the basic suits useful, and I think KAGEHOSHI's thread about adjusting the stats on those suits is also quite relevant there.
Basically, the idea is removing the passive bonuses from the suit skills and adding them to the items themselves (suit types/classes). This allows for an easier introduction of special suits, pirate suits, and more flexible use of bonuses. This is the same as it works with standard vs. tier-2 ships in EVE. In short, you have a basic ship (i.e. - racial frigate in EVE, basic racial medium in Dust) and your basic ship has some sort of bonus that is modified by that skill. You also have specialist ships (i.e. - assault frigate in EVE, assault suit in Dust) and that ship has bonuses that are modified by both the basic and specialist skills.
This is also discussed directly in KAGEHOSHI's threadnought as well, but I figured it bore repeating as we go into feedback on suits-mode. Also, I wanted to emphasize the distinction of merely having a skill bonus on the basic suit skill (status quo), vs. bonuses on the suit that are modified.
So, examples... take these skills: Amarr Medium Amarr Logistics Amarr Assault
Rather than a bonus on the skill, the skills modify the suit bonus. Basic suits receive no "role" bonuses, but have medium bonuses. Role-specific suits receive both the basic bonus and role bonus, but not necessarily the same bonuses per skill level. The only part that's iffy in my opinion as that there's some vacillation in terms of build for the races dev-side (e.g. - Amarr being "dual-tanked" apparently vs. armor tanking... vs. armor repping?). Examples (with bonuses just made up):
Amarr Basic Suits: 3% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 3% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium
Amarr Assault Suits: 5% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 5% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium & 1% bonus to light weapon damage and 5% bonus to stamina per rank of Amarr Assault
Amarr Logistics Suits: 3% bonus to armor repper efficacy and 3% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium & 5% bonus to PG/CPU fitting of equipment and -10% bonus to spawn time of Drop Uplinks per rank of Amarr Logistics
Taken in tandem with the suit adjustments that Kagehoshi suggests, we have basic skills and suits that are actually useful.
With skill bonuses on suits, we could transition easily to having special suits as tournament rewards, pirate suits, etc:
Amarr Tournament Champion Suit: 7% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 5% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium & 3% bonus to shield resistance vs. blaster and 3% bonus to armor resistance vs. projectile per rank of Amarr LogisticsorAssault.
and/or
Sansha Assault suit (requires Caldari AND Amarr skills): 6% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 2% bonus to laser weapon damage per rank of Amarr Assault & 5% bonus to shield extender efficacy and 2% shield resistance per rank of Caldari Assault
Neither special suit requires making new skills, and the items scale off and provide variety in bonuses off existing skills. This makes for much more interesting special suit options because rather than the excitement of "slightly more shields or fitting... woo" (the Master Recruiter suit is an example of this) on some putative event reward, you can have something with a meaningful effect that's interesting... but wouldn't imbalance the game if handed out at a rate of 3-5 suits for a set of tournament winners.
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
268
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Posted - 2014.01.12 19:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I think Dust might be better served by a suit/role/skill bonus somewhat more similar to EVE, and this is relevant to the current suit bonus discussion. This also ties in with making the basic suits useful, and I think KAGEHOSHI's thread about adjusting the stats on those suits is also quite relevant there. Basically, the idea is removing the passive bonuses from the suit skills and adding them to the items themselves (suit types/classes). This allows for an easier introduction of special suits, pirate suits, and more flexible use of bonuses. This is the same as it works with standard vs. tier-2 ships in EVE. In short, you have a basic ship (i.e. - racial frigate in EVE, basic racial medium in Dust) and your basic ship has some sort of bonus that is modified by that skill. You also have specialist ships (i.e. - assault frigate in EVE, assault suit in Dust) and that ship has bonuses that are modified by both the basic and specialist skills. This is also discussed directly in KAGEHOSHI's threadnought as well, but I figured it bore repeating as we go into feedback on suits-mode. Also, I wanted to emphasize the distinction of merely having a skill bonus on the basic suit skill (status quo), vs. bonuses on the suit that are modified. So, examples... take these skills: Amarr Medium Amarr Logistics Amarr Assault Rather than a bonus on the skill, the skills modify the suit bonus. Basic suits receive no "role" bonuses, but have medium bonuses. Role-specific suits receive both the basic bonus and role bonus, but not necessarily the same bonuses per skill level. The only part that's iffy in my opinion as that there's some vacillation in terms of build for the races dev-side (e.g. - Amarr being "dual-tanked" apparently vs. armor tanking... vs. armor repping?). Examples (with bonuses just made up): Amarr Basic Suits:3% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 3% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr MediumAmarr Assault Suits:5% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 5% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium& 1% bonus to light weapon damage and 5% bonus to stamina per rank of Amarr AssaultAmarr Logistics Suits:3% bonus to armor repper efficacy and 3% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium& 5% bonus to PG/CPU fitting of equipment and -10% bonus to spawn time of Drop Uplinks per rank of Amarr LogisticsTaken in tandem with the suit adjustments that Kagehoshi suggests, we have basic skills and suits that are actually useful. With skill bonuses on suits, we could transition easily to having special suits as tournament rewards, pirate suits, etc: Amarr Tournament Champion Suit:7% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 5% bonus to armor plate hp per rank of Amarr Medium& 3% bonus to shield resistance vs. blaster and 3% bonus to armor resistance vs. projectile per rank of Amarr LogisticsorAssault. and/or Sansha Assault suit (requires Caldari AND Amarr skills):6% bonus to laser weapon cooldown and 2% bonus to laser weapon damage per rank of Amarr Assault& 5% bonus to shield extender efficacy and 2% shield resistance per rank of Caldari AssaultNeither special suit requires making new skills, and the items scale off and provide variety in bonuses off existing skills. This makes for much more interesting special suit options because rather than the excitement of "slightly more shields or fitting... woo" (the Master Recruiter suit is an example of this) on some putative event reward, you can have something with a meaningful effect that's interesting... but wouldn't imbalance the game if handed out at a rate of 3-5 suits for a set of tournament winners.
No. It will encourage players to play proto even more.
This is the interests of "Passive skillls"
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
1506
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Posted - 2014.01.12 19:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
No putting them on the suits allow both tiericide as well as suit variety.
The point is the suit provides a bonus based on your relevant skills. Not you have to get a new skill for every new goddamned dropsuit that comes out. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3133
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:No putting them on the suits allow both tiericide as well as suit variety.
The point is the suit provides a bonus based on your relevant skills. Not you have to get a new skill for every new goddamned dropsuit that comes out.
I don't think you understand.
Tiericide works just as easily with the skills on the suits, this example is from EVE, which experienced tiericide. The skills would operate exactly the same on a given suit class (STD/ADV/PRO), so if those levels were removed and there was just one "whatever" assault suit - the skills would be just as relevant. You'd be receiving "a bonus based on your relevant skills", to quote you. I'm not sure where you got the idea that we have to get a new skill for every suit that comes out, but feel free to attack and curse at that strawman!
As far as suit variety, which is more varied? A different suit released (Type 2 let's say) that has slightly different stats, but receives the exact same skill bonuses as regular assault suit because it's on the skill, not the suit? Or suit that has both different stats and modifiers coming from a single skill? The range of effects (read: variety) is infinitely greater in the latter case.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3133
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote: ~pure brilliance~ No. It will encourage players to play proto even more. This is the interests of "Passive skillls"
Perhaps you'd better explain yourself better, since you're using "proto" as a verb, and ascribing "interests" to objects.
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Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
192
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Posted - 2014.01.13 08:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
So... if they don't release any different suits, and just move the current (or 1.8 bonuses) to the suits instead of skills... then it's functionally identical to our current system? The numbers are just in a different place? |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
272
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Posted - 2014.01.13 10:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Agreed.
Bonuses on the suits is functionally the same as EVE's bonuses on ships. It allows the developers much greater room for expansion and fine-tuning. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3150
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:So... if they don't release any different suits, and just move the current (or 1.8 bonuses) to the suits instead of skills... then it's functionally identical to our current system? The numbers are just in a different place?
Yes. Aside from the example (and preference) of shifting bonuses to the basic-frame skills to make them useful, having the bonuses on the suits themselves functionally changes exactly zero things for the players. They'd have to introduce new suits, etc. for the change to really be noticed, and that's one of the things that the change would make easier.
If the bonuses were then listed in the suit description (as you'd expect if they were actually tied to the suits), then it would probably be quicker/easier to look at the bonuses when you're making fittings as well. Doubly so if they tossed the variables into the suit descriptions so you could see a little number representing your current skill level.
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
1075
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is exactly what we need. +1
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3193
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Posted - 2014.01.18 04:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
With more info on role bonuses released, I feel it's important to note that we can still do something like this, and it's not too late to make basic frames useful in some way as something other than a stepping stone.
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Denn Maell
PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives
73
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Posted - 2014.01.18 05:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
So drop suit command skills function identically to ship command skills in Eve? I like it.
For those of you unfamiliar with Eve it might look like something like this:
Assault G-1 (vanilla) +1 passive armor repair per level of Gallente Medium Frame +5% Rate of Fire for Blaster tech per level of Assault (or Gallante Assault if they don't consolidate the role skills)
Assault G-1 (Black Eagle Faction Suit) +2% to scan radius per level of Gallente Scout +2% damage of Blaster Weapons per level of Gallente Assault
The suits could have the same Stats, but look different and have very different bonuses.
The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field:
One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
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Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University Ivy League
150
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Posted - 2014.01.18 05:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
I've just skimmed over the OP quickly, but from what I saw, I agree completely. I'll read up in more detail later.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3300
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Posted - 2014.01.25 08:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
And again. Still a chance to make basic suits useful, and make the suit skill system more flexible for the future.
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
400
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Posted - 2014.01.25 13:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
i agree that skills and how their applied to a certain suit should be more like eve, although the exact way to do it its debatable
Proud Christian
one of the most essential parts of eve is left out of dust: freedom, exploration, open-world gameplay.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3302
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
deepfried salad gilliam wrote:i agree that skills and how their applied to a certain suit should be more like eve, although the exact way to do it its debatable
The way I describe (just moving them to the suits and keeping the same skills) would keep the bonuses players get functionally identical (no change). It would just make it easier to add more variety since they could introduce suits with new bonuses without changing the skills at all.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3306
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Posted - 2014.01.27 06:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Making this change at the same time as suit changes would probably be easier as well.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
843
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Posted - 2014.01.27 09:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Agree. This also allows for different versions of same tied suits within a role such as dedicated medics and dedicated supply runners or av assaults as well as AP assaults etc
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3334
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Posted - 2014.02.06 05:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Agree. This also allows for different versions of same tied suits within a role such as dedicated medics and dedicated supply runners or av assaults as well as AP assaults etc
Also the cross skilling to give suits a different purpose to their intended role is nice. Scout/ logo would create a blockade runner. Heavy/logi would create the heavy logistics suit for running with heavies.
Exactly. It's all about future possibilities and extending the amount of flexibility both the developers have in crafting items, and that players can get out of skills.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8901
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Posted - 2014.02.06 05:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm not sure I understand, so I will post an example, please tell me if I'm right or wrong and correct me if I'm wrong.
So like this? STD Amarr assault = 3% laser heat reduction ADV Amarr assault = 6% laser heat reduction PRO Amarr assault = 9% laser heat reduction
Also, I don't understand the idea of the suit skill modifying the bonus. Is it like this?: Amarr assult skill: inceases bonus of the Amarr assault dropsuit by 1.005x per level; 5.025x when maxed out . So a STD Amarr assault with a 5% base bonus will get a 15.075% bonus instead if Amarr assault skill is maxed out (5.025 x 3%). An ADV Amarr assault will get a 30.15 bonus with assault skill maxed out (5.025 x 6)?
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3336
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Posted - 2014.02.06 08:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
I'm going to bed now, hopefully there will be a reply when I wake up.
Not exactly, you're overthinking it a bit. In practice, it's the same as our current system. Let me explain it without moving any bonuses to basic frames first.
The skill description in the tree changes and no longer mentions any bonuses whatsoever, but the skill itself (say, Amarr Assault) still runs from 1 to 5 at the same cost.
In contrast, if you were to look at a suit an Amarr Assault suit, the suit description will specifically mention the bonuses (for clarity, it would probably be best to have the lore-flavor text and bonuses on separate tabs to make the bonuses easy to find, on the first thing you see when you check a suit). The bonuses listed are the same on STD, ADV, and PRO suits -- same as they are now.
In the case of the actual description on the suit, in the current system the Amarr Assault suit might read: 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per rank of Amarr Assault and 5% reduction to Laser Weapon heat buildup per rank of Amarr Assault
The end result is that people would have EXACTLY the same bonuses for exactly the same skill investment (assuming nothing else changes). So, the obvious question is, "Why bother if it doesn't change anything?" Well, it may seem like a piddling distinction as to whether a bonus is directly from a skill or a "rank" of a skill modifying the same bonuses on a suit, but it can actually have a potentially large impact on the flexibility in balancing skills and adding content to the game.
You're already aware of the hullabaloo about the potential bonuses we may or may not have after the "suits" are rebalanced. Of course, it's not just the suits that are being rebalanced, the "skills" are changing as well. Any alteration to the role of a given suit is dictated to a large degree by the static bonuses conferred within the skill-tree.
If they change their mind in the current framework about, say, the Minmatar Logistics being overly repair-tool focused and wanted to broaden the role without unbalancing the class, then they can't do that without changing the bonuses for everyone since they're tied to the skill itself. If the bonuses were on the suits instead, they could release multiple Minmatar logistics suits with different bonuses, like one that loses a light weapon slot and some fitting in exchange for a different bonus and more tank. The role can be expanded or offered the versatility of a separate set of bonuses conferred by a different suit being modified by the same skill.
As mentioned previously, it also frees them up to use your skills as passes for something like "pirate" suits. In the EVE universe, the various pirate factions have ships that both require and draw benefits from multiple racial skills. Sansha's nation ships require both Caldari and Amarr skills, for example. In our current framework, a suit receiving bonuses from 2 races would be overpowered, because they'd effectively get 2 sets of passives on 1 suit. A theoretical Sansha Assault suit just receiving the bonuses-dumbly would get something like:
50% bonus to shield recharge, 25% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 10% bonus to shield extender efficacy. with rank 5 in both Amarr and Caldari Assault (depending on if the shield recharge bonuses were added or multiplied I guess).
This is obviously a little broken, even with the shield extender bonus being a bit of a lemon. With the bonuses on suits instead, the theoretical pirate suits could be customized to have bonuses more in line with specialized/interesting roles that use both skills, but aren't inherently 2x the strength of existing bonuses. For example:
4% bonus to shield extender efficacy per rank of Caldari Assault 5% reduction to laser heat build-up per rank of Amarr Assault
Obviously, the nature of those bonuses is meant to be more in-line with current bonuses than the unknown 1.8 ones, and the suit base stats could be quite different as well.
So, moving skill bonuses over to the suits in practice doesn't have to change anything as far as how the player experiences the game or how they progress. If they'd did it overnight tonight, your suits would all function identically. The change is about enabling more ease in introducing variety and flexibility without overhauling the skilltree.
My desire to have the basic-frame skill have bonuses that are also carried by the sub-suits is a separate idea, though also similar in principle to the way specialized ships work in EVE. In EVE, the "Amarr Frigate" skill might be considered analogous to the basic frame skills. Except, in EVE, the frigate skill would unlock many different ships for to use with different bonuses given by the same skill. Specialist skills, such as Assault Frigate, Electronic Attack ships, etc., can be unlocked that are more specialized than the regular ships. Specialist ships receive bonuses from both their skill and the original frigate skill. Both the original skill (Amarr Frigate in this case) and the sub skill (Electronic Attack Ships, Interceptors) unlock multiple ships with different bonuses.
Moving the bonus to the suits is a way of introducing similar flexibility to Dust as that. Having a bonus on basic suits (or the basic frame skill) that is carried over to specialist suits is a way to make that skill useful as something other than an unlocking mechanism.
As examples: Amarr frigates: Executioner Punisher -note the two ships have different bonuses ON the ship, but they're modified by the same unlocking skill Interceptors (a specialized ship): Malediction Crusader Note the dual bonuses...
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8911
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Posted - 2014.02.06 13:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
I completely support this idea. Great gateway for variety.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3342
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think the meaning or value behind the idea is lost on people reading the title. It's not an urgent thing I guess, but that's why we have an idea/features forum.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8968
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Posted - 2014.02.09 03:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
This idea has no downsides! it is functionally the same as how bonuses and skill levels work.
Example: Amarr assault skill: level 5 Amarr assault dropsuit bonus: 5% reduction of laser weaponry heat buildup. result: 25% (5% x lv 5) reduction of laser weapon heat buildup reduction per level.
The advantage the idea is that you can have new special assaults but have different bonuses leveled up by the same skill.
Example: Amarr assault skill: level 3 "Imperial Guardian" Amarr assault (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% increase to Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits. Result: 6% (2% x lv 3) increase to Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits.
Amarr scout skill: level 4 "Blood Raider" Amarr scout dropsuit bonus: 2% weapon damage increase to enemies hit from the back. Result: 8% (2% x lv 4) weapon damage increase to enemies hit from the back.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3411
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Posted - 2014.02.10 14:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yup.
It's actually pretty intuitive, and makes sense to anyone that already knows the EVE system I'm sure.
I think the only problem in understanding it is understanding that what the point is if nothing is changing necessarily.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
183
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Posted - 2014.02.10 15:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
I fully support this idea. I'm curious as to what you, and Kagehoshi, think of this in relation to your own. |
Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
491
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Posted - 2014.02.10 16:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
This. So much this.
I'd love to see this combined with Tiericide. So, instead of having a boring progression through tiers, we get different suits within the one role with different bonuses and stats to have different 'sub-roles' within their larger role. For example:
Minmatar Assault series A:
5% bonus to shield recharge rate and shield recharge delay per level of the Minmatar Medum Dropsuits skill 3% bonus to projectile and explosive weapons ROF per level of the Minmatar Assault skill
Minmatar Assault Series B:
10% bonus to shield shield extender Efficacy per level of Minmatar Medium Dropsuits skill 5% bonus to projectile weapon magazine size and +1 to explosive weapon magazine size per level of Minmatar Assault.
Series A will fit the assaulting role of flanking, killing people fast and getting behind cover whilst the Series B suit will have better survivability and more ammo per magazine to help it survive more head on attacks.
We want cake and tea.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3433
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Posted - 2014.02.14 08:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
One of the nice things is that it works with or without tiericide.
As an additional bonus, it solves a problem the pilot suits seemed to have:
The largest problem with pilot suits as they were presented before is that they were like most of our dropsuits: the passive bonus from the suit skill applies in full regardless of the suit.
Presumably a "pilot" wants to be a dedicated vehicle jockey, right? What does it matter what the suit stats are then? Once you hit rank 5 and get the full skill bonus, you have no reason to ever step into a proto-model suit, as you can get the same bonuses to your vehicle by wearing the standard suit. Your vehicle is your shield, so the suit models become largely superfluous. Seems a bit backwards.
With bonuses on the suits themselves, they could make the pilot suit an "exception" to the normal passive skill rule by scaling the bonus amounts on the suit tiers. That way, you have to run the proto suit to get the maximum bonus to your vehicle. It seems appropriate for that one scenario because pilots present a unique problem with their vehicle bonuses otherwise.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
191
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Posted - 2014.02.14 08:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:One of the nice things is that it works with or without tiericide.
As an additional bonus, it solves a problem the pilot suits seemed to have:
The largest problem with pilot suits as they were presented before is that they were like most of our dropsuits: the passive bonus from the suit skill applies in full regardless of the suit.
Presumably a "pilot" wants to be a dedicated vehicle jockey, right? What does it matter what the suit stats are then? Once you hit rank 5 and get the full skill bonus, you have no reason to ever step into a proto-model suit, as you can get the same bonuses to your vehicle by wearing the standard suit. Your vehicle is your shield, so the suit models become largely superfluous. Seems a bit backwards.
With bonuses on the suits themselves, they could make the pilot suit an "exception" to the normal passive skill rule by scaling the bonus amounts on the suit tiers. That way, you have to run the proto suit to get the maximum bonus to your vehicle. It seems appropriate for that one scenario because pilots present a unique problem with their vehicle bonuses otherwise.
Actually the problem with the Pilot Suit is that it is redundant. You already skill into vehicles the same way that you skill into Dropsuits, effectively making the vehicle itself a Dropsuit. Adding a Pilot Suit on top of that just doesn't make any sense.
Add to that the difficulty that CCP has already faced when trying to balance vehicles, giving them something else that adds more bonuses above and beyond anything that dropsuits can get is just going flood the forums with more "Nerf Vehicle" threads. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3433
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Posted - 2014.02.14 08:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hagintora wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:One of the nice things is that it works with or without tiericide.
As an additional bonus, it solves a problem the pilot suits seemed to have:
The largest problem with pilot suits as they were presented before is that they were like most of our dropsuits: the passive bonus from the suit skill applies in full regardless of the suit.
Presumably a "pilot" wants to be a dedicated vehicle jockey, right? What does it matter what the suit stats are then? Once you hit rank 5 and get the full skill bonus, you have no reason to ever step into a proto-model suit, as you can get the same bonuses to your vehicle by wearing the standard suit. Your vehicle is your shield, so the suit models become largely superfluous. Seems a bit backwards.
With bonuses on the suits themselves, they could make the pilot suit an "exception" to the normal passive skill rule by scaling the bonus amounts on the suit tiers. That way, you have to run the proto suit to get the maximum bonus to your vehicle. It seems appropriate for that one scenario because pilots present a unique problem with their vehicle bonuses otherwise. Actually the problem with the Pilot Suit is that it is redundant. You already skill into vehicles the same way that you skill into Dropsuits, effectively making the vehicle itself a Dropsuit. Adding a Pilot Suit on top of that just doesn't make any sense. Add to that the difficulty that CCP has already faced when trying to balance vehicles, giving them something else that adds more bonuses above and beyond anything that dropsuits can get is just going flood the forums with more "Nerf Vehicle" threads.
I won't argue the point that vehicles have issues, and at the moment, serious serious issues. The pilot suit bonuses, etc. were at a different time in the game as well. Given they've actually said they planned on a pilot suit (that is, it seems unlikely they'll just scratch it since it STILL has existing spots in the market, etc.) I'd gear the arguments more towards how the suit might be balanced, and what the vehicles have to look like in light of that.
The way the pendulum has shifted at the moment, a heavily bonused suit (to something like timers on shield/armor hardeners) would break the game. I was just noting that moving suit bonuses works to fix a very specific problem - the pilot suit tiers themselves being mostly irrelevant to vehicle users within the current framework.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
191
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Posted - 2014.02.14 08:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
You're right of course. Talking about the relevancy of certain suits derails the point of the thread. I apologize.
On topic, I was wondering what kind of bonuses you were thinking of for each of the Frames (Light, Medium, Heavy). I was trying I've been playing redefining the skill tree (the link I posted above) but haven't been able to come up with any decent bonuses for the Racial Frames yet. What were you thinking of? |
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