DUST Search - Skillpoint impact has to be lessened.

trollsroyce wrote:

The impact of skillpoints to the gameplay has to be lessened IMHO. I'd propose a 1% increase per skill level to any stat a skill affects anywhere, be it on passive stats or equipment. That would be the maximum for me.

I will just give one simple reason I think is strong enough to consider:

Existing Player Advantage vs. New Player Retention

Dust has two paths to go. Either keep milking the existing playerbase with promotional gear and stuff to keep them interested until the thing sinks, or to transition eventually into another platform (STEAM, PS4, PC) and hope for longevity. For the latter to succeed everything must be done to keep new players interested.

Current players have an advantage in 1) gear, 2) SP and 3) experience. These combined make for a wall of proto-SP-stomping, that forces the newcomers to think: "Will I stick around for half a year to possibly compete with this cultural advantage?". Do the veterans need the SP advantage on top of gear and experience?

The SP is the worst part in this question. You can get gear by getting friends. You can quickly accumulate experience by playing the game. You can have inherent and background skill in FPS games. But you cannot bridge the SP gap when you want to become competitive. There is no room for low SP players in a game with limited encounter numbers. In EVE the SP gap does not matter, because you just add to the group you fight with. In dust, you compete for the player slot of someone with higher SP.

This is why I think the top % gain for any SP related increase should be 1%. It all stacks up.

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trollsroyce Ametat Security Amarr Empire 675	Posted - 2014.01.11 11:22:00 - [1] - Quote The impact of skillpoints to the gameplay has to be lessened IMHO. I'd propose a 1% increase per skill level to any stat a skill affects anywhere, be it on passive stats or equipment. That would be the maximum for me. I will just give one simple reason I think is strong enough to consider: Existing Player Advantage vs. New Player Retention Dust has two paths to go. Either keep milking the existing playerbase with promotional gear and stuff to keep them interested until the thing sinks, or to transition eventually into another platform (STEAM, PS4, PC) and hope for longevity. For the latter to succeed everything must be done to keep new players interested. Current players have an advantage in 1) gear, 2) SP and 3) experience. These combined make for a wall of proto-SP-stomping, that forces the newcomers to think: "Will I stick around for half a year to possibly compete with this cultural advantage?". Do the veterans need the SP advantage on top of gear and experience? The SP is the worst part in this question. You can get gear by getting friends. You can quickly accumulate experience by playing the game. You can have inherent and background skill in FPS games. But you cannot bridge the SP gap when you want to become competitive. There is no room for low SP players in a game with limited encounter numbers. In EVE the SP gap does not matter, because you just add to the group you fight with. In dust, you compete for the player slot of someone with higher SP. This is why I think the top % gain for any SP related increase should be 1%. It all stacks up.
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1721	Posted - 2014.01.11 11:37:00 - [2] - Quote This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 415	Posted - 2014.01.11 11:56:00 - [3] - Quote Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. ^ This. We want cake and tea.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 267	Posted - 2014.01.11 12:04:00 - [4] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: The impact of skillpoints to the gameplay has to be lessened IMHO. I'd propose a 1% increase per skill level to any stat a skill affects anywhere, be it on passive stats or equipment. That would be the maximum for me. I will just give one simple reason I think is strong enough to consider: Existing Player Advantage vs. New Player Retention Dust has two paths to go. Either keep milking the existing playerbase with promotional gear and stuff to keep them interested until the thing sinks, or to transition eventually into another platform (STEAM, PS4, PC) and hope for longevity. For the latter to succeed everything must be done to keep new players interested. Current players have an advantage in 1) gear, 2) SP and 3) experience. These combined make for a wall of proto-SP-stomping, that forces the newcomers to think: "Will I stick around for half a year to possibly compete with this cultural advantage?". Do the veterans need the SP advantage on top of gear and experience? The SP is the worst part in this question. You can get gear by getting friends. You can quickly accumulate experience by playing the game. You can have inherent and background skill in FPS games. But you cannot bridge the SP gap when you want to become competitive. There is no room for low SP players in a game with limited encounter numbers. In EVE the SP gap does not matter, because you just add to the group you fight with. In dust, you compete for the player slot of someone with higher SP. This is why I think the top % gain for any SP related increase should be 1%. It all stacks up. PVE and a major SP bonus that decrease when your SP is higher. Huge SP bonus when playing pVE when you're unexperimented : (Less than 10 Million SP) - 5 Millions SP : +50% SP . . . . 10 million SP : 25%
Faquira Bleuetta 0uter.Heaven 154	Posted - 2014.01.11 12:18:00 - [5] - Quote mag skill is better than dust 514
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 677	Posted - 2014.01.11 16:29:00 - [6] - Quote This sounds like a complicated idea to apply. Also it rewards new players for playing and while having new players would be nice I feel this would be unfair to new players because it would create a crutch, propping up their shortcomings with a dependency on a bonus not available to older players and one that would later be removed. LogiGod earns his pips
trollsroyce Ametat Security Amarr Empire 677	Posted - 2014.01.15 09:14:00 - [7] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: This sounds like a complicated idea to apply. Also it rewards new players for playing and while having new players would be nice I feel this would be unfair to new players because it would create a crutch, propping up their shortcomings with a dependency on a bonus not available to older players and one that would later be removed. Nope, what I suggest here is that all skills impacts for all players are reduced so that skillpoints play much less of a buff role. It would affect everyone, and it would only lower the disadvantage newbies are at (or rather, that all players are at compared to further specialized characters).
trollsroyce Ametat Security Amarr Empire 677	Posted - 2014.01.15 09:15:00 - [8] - Quote Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. PVE does not compete with skillpoints though. Both are needed IMHO.
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1742	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:20:00 - [9] - Quote It goes without saying, but PVE should generates SP too. Long missions could provide a good payout. Then, the most SP-insecure players could go into PVP with better skills under their belt (and get their buns handed to them anyway :). I wonder what will be their excuses then. Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord
Harpyja Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 1087	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:33:00 - [10] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. PVE does not compete with skillpoints though. Both are needed IMHO. It kind of does.... Try completing even a level 2 security mission with a noob frigate. And I disagree with the OP. I find the skill bonuses as an incentive to keep playing. I want to get those skills to level 5. And it feels very rewarding when I get them to level 5. I suggest you go play another game where everyone has the same stats, such as CoD, where there is no player investment into the game. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

Ankbar Latrommi Immortal Guides 32	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:52:00 - [11] - Quote Harpyja wrote: It kind of does.... Try completing even a level 2 security mission with a noob frigate. And I disagree with the OP. I find the skill bonuses as an incentive to keep playing. I want to get those skills to level 5. And it feels very rewarding when I get them to level 5. I suggest you go play another game where everyone has the same stats, such as CoD, where there is no player investment into the game. I couldn't agree more. Lvl 2 missions in Eve Online are supposed to be for cruisers, destroyers if you're good enough. There is an intentional progression requiring skill points even in PvE. If I wanted to play CoD/BF, that's where I would be. This is Eve--both player skills and character skills are relevant. trollsroyce wrote: In dust, you compete for the player slot of someone with higher SP. How so? What are you talking about? Look, if you're new to Eve Dust514, yes your lesser skills mean your suits will have less ehp and your guns will be less accurate, etc. No lack of skills prevents you from getting involved in the community, getting in a corp, and going out with corpmates. Just like: trollsroyce wrote: In EVE the SP gap does not matter, because you just add to the group you fight with. Reiner Knizia-"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." Eve> FPS
Kilo Shells G.L.O.R.Y Public Disorder. 23	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:51:00 - [12] - Quote I think streamlining your SP works well. Proto suit with a proto weapon costs very little SP and adding plates/shields would probably still be under 5 mil? Not that I'm against a noob boost +1 Caldari Assault My 2 cents on Grenades
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1215	Posted - 2014.01.15 17:23:00 - [13] - Quote If there was tiericide this wouldn't be necessary. Right now the problem is to get to Proto you need to max out the skills which in turn gives you the max bonuses. Now, especially with faction gear, the bonus is the only real incentive to take a module or suit to 5. If the slot count and base fitting was the same for a new player as an old one new players could focus on dropsuit upgrades instead of having to invest over a months worth of SP to have one competitive suit, not including all the fittings. The focus should be less on simply getting better things, but on specialization. Also there is a limit to how far your SP will maximize a suit, and no one fitting can benifit from more than about 20 mil SP. That is alot, but if you don't force people to go to level 5 just to get proto suits and modules, assuming the bonuses stay, for 5 mil you can make that same suit, but it will only be about 10% less effective all around. It's still not great, but it's competitve, far more competitive than it currently is. The other reason why this is important is because making the threshold to useful gear lower makes it easier to try different things without having to stay gimped for a long time. New players will still have the experience and wealth gap with the vets. The skill bonuses will still be enough of an incentive to maximize for vets but not as overpowering as simply having better gear like we have now. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1581	Posted - 2014.01.15 17:58:00 - [14] - Quote Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. PvE really is the solution to the problem. The skillsystem is fine. The proble is just that you're instantly thrown into a match with people who have much more SP than you do and you can either deal with it and farm until you have enough SP yourself, while constantly being killed, or you stop playing. Dust would benefit extremely from PvE. Not only would people have more to do, but it would also level the field in PvP. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Ankbar Latrommi Immortal Guides 32	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:05:00 - [15] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: while constantly being killed, Okay, I think this is a point which is being assumed, but is rather subjective. What do you mean by "constantly being killed"? I am pretty bad at FPS's in general (in PvP at least), but I rarely have a match where I'm like, "That was a total waste of time and isk; I was totally out-skilled." And I only do random pub matches. So what kind of KDR would you say is the threshhold for "constantly being killed"? Reiner Knizia-"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." Eve> FPS
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 317	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:40:00 - [16] - Quote I agree that tiericide would also level out the playing field a lot. I've always felt that skills should be unlocking variety rather than superiority, but unfortunately the early versions of this game went for tiers and we've been stuck with them ever since. If we had more variety to unlock with the skills, then there would still be an incentive to skill up even if the bonuses are reduced. On top of that, keeping the current bonuses would be less significant to the experience gap if they weren't also stacked on unequivocally better equipment. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
trollsroyce Ametat Security Amarr Empire 677	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:33:00 - [17] - Quote Harpyja wrote: trollsroyce wrote: Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. PVE does not compete with skillpoints though. Both are needed IMHO. It kind of does.... Try completing even a level 2 security mission with a noob frigate. And I disagree with the OP. I find the skill bonuses as an incentive to keep playing. I want to get those skills to level 5. And it feels very rewarding when I get them to level 5. I suggest you go play another game where everyone has the same stats, such as CoD, where there is no player investment into the game. Does not compete with means they are different approaches to alleviate a problem, both of which are needed, neither of which are competing with each other in a way that it's either or. You can have both. 1% bonuses are skill bonuses still, and unlocking gear is the prime incentive.
trollsroyce Ametat Security Amarr Empire 677	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:33:00 - [18] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Anarchide wrote: This has been said countless timess, but PVE, EVE mission-like with multiple levels of difficulty, would ease that problem greatly. Right now it's like null-sec out there. The Academy being low-sec. There's no hi-sec at all in Dust for people to evolve. I know that I wouldn't probably be playing EVE if there wasn't any hi-sec sectors at all. PvE really is the solution to the problem. The skillsystem is fine. The proble is just that you're instantly thrown into a match with people who have much more SP than you do and you can either deal with it and farm until you have enough SP yourself, while constantly being killed, or you stop playing. Dust would benefit extremely from PvE. Not only would people have more to do, but it would also level the field in PvP. PVE is one solution, I agree here. Skillpoint barrier reduction is another solution.
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 91	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:00:00 - [19] - Quote There's no point and no fun in a game that doesn't change. What you propose is too drastic. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 989	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:07:00 - [20] - Quote +1 for tiericide. -1 for PVE solution. Personally I think PVE is gonna alienate players from dust gameplay we know, meaning pvp dust gameplay is likely to diminish and fade. That could be a topic of it's own... FEEDBACK: Analysis on 1.7 tank functionality



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