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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
1526
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm a self hating tanker, folks.
I've been trolling through the forums today and I saw things like: "tanks are not OP. Railguns need a splash radius buff. Blasters require skill to kill infantry. AV is not UP. Tanks are not too fast. Modules are fine. Tanks are expensive and require a lot of SP..." Oh my god I almost exploded when I saw the one about railguns needing a splash buff!!!
(Rail v Blater imbalance; Gunlogi v Madrugar imbalance)
Every good tanker I know can hit a scout on the run with a rail within 3 shots- good ones do it everytime. While, I'm on the topic of rails, they ARE OP- I would know- I put like all of my SP into making them perfect. I'm good, and very aware of it, but I AM NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO TAKE OUT AN ION CANNON MADRUGAR AT 5m WITH A RAILGUN! How on earth am I out-DPSing a gallente blaster with a rail weapon!? I've run the numbers, I have, and it says I am wrong about this, but I have yet to lose this battle when I know it's about to happen. Maybe it's shield hardeners, or maybe the have garbage pilots. BUT IF I CAN BEAT PSYCHOTIC SHOOTER, arguably the BEST BLASTER MADRUGAR PILOT SINCE FOREVER, something is wrong- very very wrong when I survive in my wimpy little gunlogi and he is smoking. Now, it didn't happen everytime, but if we squared off, saw eachother coming, had fresh modules up, and went at it with honor, I won- I AM NOT THAT GOOD- NOBODY IS THAT GOOD! So please, take a look at the blaster turrets and compare them to rails. A quick fix would be a ROF change from 1.3 to 2.0, while reducing the overheat, so rails can 8 rounds instead of 6, before overheating. It'd also give dropships more of a fighting chance, while still keeping them in check.
(Rails v Dropships)
Sorry, pilots, but you're gonna hate me for this: You guys are potentially the most OP thing we've seen in a long time. A python with missiles is the most terrifying thing on the game unless you're a redline rail tank. I have no problem with it, though. I take my hats off to the pilots who excel (Judge, Seriamos, Lillica Foster, Ninjapiratezombie, etc). You guys are incredible and I could never do what you do. However, I want balance for everyone, so rails cannot be nerfed. You guys claim forges kill you- BS. They're already a victim of my OP double damage modded nerd shotgun before that happens. The only thing that kills you is double dmg modded railguns from the redline, and as much as i hate them ,they are a necessary evil because there is no way in hell you can be killed otherwise.
(Gunlogi can't aim through its hull)
This glitch is as old as 1.0 and i think it never got fixed when the coding was redone- it gives madrugars an advantage when attacking gunlogis from high ground and is broken- an exploit
(Active modules don't scale in a balanced manner)
Right now, complex modules are perfect. However, nothing else is working properly. When one looks at infantry modules, they have bigger multipliers as they meta increases, but with vehicle active modules, only the timers change. This is kind of good because it makes vehicles more accessable, but it also discourages investing SP because it only changes how long and often a vehicle can engage, not how powerful it is. Imagine if infantry worked that way- it'd be stupid! My proposal- complex active modules stay as they are. Then lower tier modules scale as such: Complex 1.0(multiplier, cooldown, duration) Enhanced 0.7(multiplier, cooldown, duration) Basic 0.5(multiplier, cooldown, duration) Militia 0.3(multiplier, cooldown, duration) This means that if someone wants a tank that can permaharden for an entire game (3 complex hardened gunlogi), they have to risk 400,000 ISK to do so. It isn't SUPER expensive and can be earned back in 2 games running cheap suits, but it does discourage spamming by all but the super rich and most players don't have over 150 mil ISK...and the ones that do would spam proto of another kind anyway so it doesn't make a difference. The problem isn't so much tanks being completely OP (they are), but that they're too cheap and even a newberry can afford to deploy up to 3 per battle.
(fun bits)
I'm just gonna take a moment to say this: I'm not mad because a sica with a militia rail 2hkd's me yesterday. I'm not made because I am forced to play tanks or we lose the battle. I'm mad because I want a balanced game- not a game where things are 'balanced' in my favor. What a lot of you don't know is that I have >15mil in infantry and only 10 mil in tanks. I run infantry more than I run tanks. I play with dropship pilots. I have a scout alt. About the only weapon I've never specced is the scrambler rifle. I want a game where EVERY ROLE IS EQUALLY PROFITABLE and there are multiple ways to play that role.
(Tanks stats compared to AV DPS- hardeners are not the problem)
No, gentleman, hardeners are not the problem (except triple hardened gunlogis (which I run, often). The problem is when hardeners come down, tanks still have too much EHP for even damage modded proto AV to punch through which is so wrong. WHY IS A WIKI BREACH FORGE NOT OHKING MY SICA WITH NO HARDENERS!? Swarms need to fire with shorter intervals (0.15s), track better(bring back 90 degree turns), lock on at 300m, and have a greater velocity- this makes them special dropship and LAV killers. Forges need to become much much more effective vs HAVs even with hardeners on. To do this, I'd like a longer charge up time of 2s, but with a 1000 base damage increase at all levels for all forge guns--except breaches which get a 1300 increase. This should allow forges to bring un unhardened shield tank down to its armor, and an armor tank to just at the point where a second shot would leave them dead or close. Because hardeneers are so powerful, I don't feel that fully specced tanks would hurt too much from these changes WHEN their hardneers are on.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
1526
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Severance Pay
Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic
991
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
TLDR
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
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Righteous Rage
BIG BAD W0LVES
34
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
If they would just give the forge back its charge time things would go back to normal. Why doesn't anyone see this.
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."
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NAV HIV
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
746
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Had to like your post |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
7721
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
This is actually pretty brilliant stuff.
Level 7 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
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SteelDark Knight
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
208
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
When I read the initial statement (and the title) I thought I was going to disagree with much that was written. I was totally wrong. As far as your initial post (second is reserved as I post this) I agree with your summary almost 100%
Great points and good explanation of those points. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
9825
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:(Rails v Dropships)
Sorry, pilots, but you're gonna hate me for this: You guys are potentially the most OP thing we've seen in a long time. A python with missiles is the most terrifying thing on the game unless you're a redline rail tank. I have no problem with it, though. I take my hats off to the pilots who excel (Judge, Seriamos, Lillica Foster, Ninjapiratezombie, etc). You guys are incredible and I could never do what you do. However, I want balance for everyone, so rails cannot be nerfed. You guys claim forges kill you- BS. They're already a victim of my OP double damage modded nerd shotgun before that happens. The only thing that kills you is double dmg modded railguns from the redline, and as much as i hate them ,they are a necessary evil because there is no way in hell you can be killed otherwise. Actually forges do kill us, so long as it's not just a single forge gun chasing around trying to kill us. Add in a second forge or some swarms and it gets hairy.
Railtanks need better elevation so we can solve the redline. The issue with railtanks vs dropships has nothing to do with rails being too strong, and everything to do with the redline. Both players should be able to fight back, instead of having some of the "best" players in the game camping deep in the redline, game after game after game, because it entails virtually no risk while letting them terrorize the field.
It's straight up bad mechanics
And swarms need a projectile speed buff so they actually threaten dropships.
Assault Dropship Montage
Incubus Pilot, AV Specialist, Fat Scout DUST addict
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TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines
2009
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Third paragraph states precisely how i feel about raw input for kB and mouse.
Those saying it won't be op are either lying to protect it or just plain sht, I'm a beast with pc fps games.
Level 2 forum warrior.
Minmatar and Gallente fw.
I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
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Talryn Vilneram
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
150
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
I liked the nerfing the rail charge time and decreasing the heat. But I disliked everything else. |
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
9825
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Just saw your forge changes.
Good thread, but lolno
Assault Dropship Montage
Incubus Pilot, AV Specialist, Fat Scout DUST addict
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
1534
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Talryn Vilneram wrote:I liked the nerfing the rail charge time and decreasing the heat. But I disliked everything else.
Why? If you are truly a good tanker (assuming you are a tanker), then these nerfs will be easy to adapt to comapred the the 25% PG nerf from hell...
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
812
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:(Rails v Dropships)
Sorry, pilots, but you're gonna hate me for this: You guys are potentially the most OP thing we've seen in a long time. A python with missiles is the most terrifying thing on the game unless you're a redline rail tank. I have no problem with it, though. I take my hats off to the pilots who excel (Judge, Seriamos, Lillica Foster, Ninjapiratezombie, etc). You guys are incredible and I could never do what you do. However, I want balance for everyone, so rails cannot be nerfed. You guys claim forges kill you- BS. They're already a victim of my OP double damage modded nerd shotgun before that happens. The only thing that kills you is double dmg modded railguns from the redline, and as much as i hate them ,they are a necessary evil because there is no way in hell you can be killed otherwise. Actually forges do kill us, so long as it's not just a single forge gun chasing around trying to kill us. Add in a second forge or some swarms and it gets hairy. Railtanks need better elevation so we can solve the redline. The issue with railtanks vs dropships has nothing to do with rails being too strong, and everything to do with the redline. Both players should be able to fight back, instead of having some of the "best" players in the game camping deep in the redline, game after game after game, because it entails virtually no risk while letting them terrorize the field. It's straight up bad mechanics And swarms need a projectile speed buff so they actually threaten dropships.
I agree with this
The Redline is the problem, plain and simple. When a rail tank is able to park on a hill and shoot your DS while its being called down in your ground spawn it is a problem. It is also a problem when while trying to take down that redline rail tank with teamwork; counter rail tank and ADS to finish em off, all the tank needs to do is reverse hard and fast into the redline, where the deep redline becomes the tankers ultimate 20 second countdown OHK weapon.
I don't mind getting shot down because I'm being stupid; It's because I was being stupid, but give me a chance to fight back
The Sinwarden
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Valmorgan Aubaris
Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services ACME Holding Conglomerate
152
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Why not just give forge guns + dam vs viehicles?
EVE alliance seeks mercs and corps!
Join Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services today!
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GET ATMESON
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
212
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Posted - 2014.01.09 21:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
I stopped reading once you said FG need another 2 second charge time. Its all ready user hard to get shots off now with out other INF killing you.
I agree 100% with everything else in the first post
1.7 HMG hotfix works great. Now for more Heavy suits or guns soonGäó
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
580
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Posted - 2014.01.09 21:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
(Rail v Blater imbalance; Gunlogi v Madrugar imbalance)
Agree, a rof nerf would be good, but I also think a range nerf to 350-400m is also necessary. Our maps are too small for 600m to be utilized without redline abuse.
(Rails v Dropships)
Lol, yeah right. AV vs Dropships are balanced (though I'd add swarms stopping shield regen). This quote from THE Judge Rhadamanthus:
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Op is unfounded. Slippery slope arguments are not useful. What we can't let happen is for rail tanks to lose too much elevation. Once they can't shoot up then we may have some issue with dropships. Step one is making sure no rail tank can shoot into the operational map zone from the redline. After that we have to assess how well they do.
I recorded the last 37 matches that I saw an ADS pilot not in my squad fly in. They never came first. The average kills was 7. With the highs being about 15. Compared to the top scorer in every match (dom/Skirm) who often topped 30 kills using rails/CR.
The truth is that even in a match with no AV dropships rarely ever out preform the top infantry players. While it is not a position we want to be in (uncontested) when talking about dropships and their impact on a battle you need to bear the measures of effectiveness in mind. What makes an ADS over powered? The OP implies kills. In that case they are far from OP. So what does a battlefield ruined by dropships look like? If we know that we can watch for it.
I see ADS die to forge and swarms often. So I do not think that ik tanks were all removed tomorrow that the ADS would start dominating. Tanks are not getting removed so wahy are you making up scenarios that are not going to happen? Rail tanks can easily hit dropships from indoe the burn zone. At 250 meters a rail tank can shoot 284 meters into the air. ADS operate at 100 meters usually. A rail can hit that altitude from over 500m away.
Note : Operational map zones are those areas where objectives are contested
(Gunlogi can't aim through its hull)/ (Active modules don't scale in a balanced manner)
Agree on both counts. Modules need to have different effectiveness' with tiers, not just durations.
(Tanks stats compared to AV DPS- hardeners are not the problem)
All of your suggestion would wreck dropships. Even so, the problem is mostly with militia tanks/ mods. Add small turrets back to militia tanks, reduce their CPU/PG, and reduce the effectiveness of militia mods and that should solve most tank issues.
(Why are mobility modules in high slots)
This 100%. It makes no sense. Shields are supposed to be the "punch em' in the nose and get out" style fighters while armor are supposed to be the "stand your ground" style (more or less). (Though, please keep the ABs in the high slot because my Python only has 1 low, and that's needed for a PG unit in every build I run).
(Tank Culture)
Elegantly written.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 1; Other DS: 28 Gêå1; Tanks: 27 Gêå2
1/1
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Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy
647
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Posted - 2014.01.09 22:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
When has Caldari ever been about mobility? Never.
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
1550
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Posted - 2014.01.09 23:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:When has Caldari ever been about mobility? Never.
BC the only other low slot modules are stealth and armor
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Asha Starwind
VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
92
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Posted - 2014.01.09 23:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Third paragraph states precisely how i feel about raw input for kB and mouse.
Those saying it won't be op are either lying to protect it or just plain sht, I'm a beast with pc fps games.
Pls link your steam/battlelog stat page, I have difficult time believing that without proof. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2116
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Posted - 2014.01.09 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ironically, since I am the author of the Swarm Launcher guide and Charlotte OGÇÖDell a top tanker, I think he went a little overboard on his proposed Swarm Launcher buff. But otherwise this seems to be a vary intelligently written and balanced assessment of the state of Tanks in 1.7.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
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