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KA24DERT
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Posted - 2014.01.09 19:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
So it seems that the direction of cloaking in this game is headed towards having a Cloaky Combat Scout.
The current proposed cloaking mechanics state that cloaks are a piece of equipment, and that light weapons can be equipped on a suit with a cloak, and be fired while cloaked.
Also, no scout has more than 1 equipment slot, thus the utility of performing scans or dropping links or mines behind enemy lines is an immediate impossibility.
This forces the scout into a combat role.
A combat role with access to rail rifles, sniper rifles, and shotguns, that can barely be detected before collecting their free kill.
I donGÇÖt think that is a good addition to the game, and will be supremely frustrating and nearly un-counterable on the battlefield. Think of a ThaleGÇÖs sniper with a cloak in the redline, sniping while cloaked, and then hiding behind structures when his cloak is in cooldown.
I think this is a pretty bad gameplay mistake.
However, I do think that cloaking has a place in this game, not as a combat scout, but as a cloaky engineer/saboteur.
In my mind, the cloaky scout role should be focused on scurrying behind enemy lines and dropping uplinks while hunting enemy uplinks. He should be able to lay minefields, he should be able run scans and report enemy movements, he should be able to sneak to an objective and hack. He should also occasionally be able to assassinate people, but not with great ease.
So in addition to CCP RemnantGÇÖs list, here are my proposed changes:
1) The cloak recharges while sitting still, thus enabling longer deployments behind enemy lines.
2) The cloak should disable the equpping of light weapons.
3) The cloak should reduce the damage of sidearms by 20%
4) Scout suits should get additional equipment slots (to fit a cloak AND something useful)
These changes will guide the cloaky scout out of the combat role, and into an infiltrator role.
Now thereGÇÖs different ways to solve the light weapon/equipment slot problem. One is to make the cloak a Light Weapon, thus freeing up the equipment slot. The other is to increase equipment slots for all scouts.
Another possible solution is to restrict cloaks to a new class of GÇ£blackopsGÇ¥ dropsuits, which will have no light weapon slot to begin with, have less HP/fitting, but have 2-3 equipment slots. I know itGÇÖs more Dev time, but I think limiting the use of a cloak to a single suit is an easier balance problem to solve than messing with the existing scout class.
But thereGÇÖs many ways to skin that cat.
TL;DR Cloaky Ganky Combat Scouts will ruin the game, Cloaky Sneaky Saboteurs will add to the game
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
411
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Posted - 2014.01.09 20:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:KA24DERT wrote:
I donGÇÖt think that is a good addition to the game, and will be supremely frustrating and nearly un-counterable on the battlefield. Think of a ThaleGÇÖs sniper with a cloak in the redline, sniping while cloaked, and then hiding behind structures when his cloak is in cooldown.
Additionally, Thale's snipers deep in the redline are practically invulnerable anyway.
Use a scanner to counter it. They're getting buffed further in the form of the Gallogi bonus and the profile dampening on most of the scouts is being removed.
Thales can currently be countered by a decent sniper, or another Thale's user. This change will make them only counterable by flying a ship into the redline while scanning, then suicide dropping on them.
That's a lot of ISK to take care of one sniper.
Quote:Quote:
So in addition to CCP RemnantGÇÖs list, here are my proposed changes:
1) The cloak recharges while sitting still, thus enabling longer deployments behind enemy lines.
2) The cloak should disable the equpping of light weapons.
3) The cloak should reduce the damage of sidearms by 20%
4) Scout suits should get additional equipment slots (to fit a cloak AND something useful)
I... kind of like some of these. On one hand, you give. On the other hand, you take, and it changes the role. However, I don't think the weapon penalties need to be so draconian. One thing which we absolutely should not be able to have is firing whilst cloaked, but wrecking your weaponry whilst uncloaked seems dubious. I would prefer something more along the lines of a weapon firing delay. Although EVE is not as good a model as people think, there is a mechanic in that which does not allow you to fire your weapons for a short period after decloaking. This would prevent people from randomly instagibbing enemies from nowhere but allow the scouts to be not completely screwed if they get in a fight. Because they -will- get in a fight at some point. Everyone has to.
Well that is based on my opinion that a combat cloaky scout will be game breaking, as uncloaked units can already kill people in under a second while fully visible.
Having to uncloak while firing is not a sufficient nerf when a light weapon is an option. Even a targeting delay isn't enough with light weapons, since a damped rail user will happily, patiently wait for both the targeting timer and the cloak timer to run out before unleashing hell and cloaking up again.
However if you remove the light weapon, and nerf the sidearm, it becomes very hard to kill someone. I think this counters the requirement that a cloaked unit must uncloak before shooting, since an assassination will only be possible on an unaware target and still require skill/stealth, and will also cause you to show up on scan and shimmer like a light show.
Yes it will be hard to defend yourself. But in my opinion the penalty for getting caught as an infiltrator should be death.
Quote:
These changes will guide the cloaky scout out of the combat role, and into an infiltrator role.
It would help do that, but I'm dubious as to the value of such a thing. Ninja hacking is one role it could do, although if the point is even slightly guarded with these restrictions the scout is stuck. What else? Covert tank trapping, maybe?
I think that such a role would be too niche and unused.[/quote]
This is intentional. Cloaky combat in an FPS is a frustrating thing to be a victim of. The effort for earning a tactical victory(mining a road, dropping links, hacking points) or killing a vital target (point defender) should be great, and the rewards should be just as fulfilling.
Invisibility should absolutely be a niche gameplay mechanic. |
KA24DERT
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Posted - 2014.01.10 04:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
GRIM GEAR wrote:
You seem very biased towards scouts. when it comes to the crunch other suits can use the cloak too you complete twit.
Thanks for bringing that up, I automatically assumed that the cloak would be scout only.
If the cloak is available for all suits, then that's a problem bigger than the scope of this thread. |
KA24DERT
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417
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Posted - 2014.01.10 18:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:KA24DERT wrote:
However, I do think that cloaking has a place in this game, not as a combat scout, but as a cloaky engineer/saboteur.
In my mind, the cloaky scout role should be focused on scurrying behind enemy lines and dropping uplinks while hunting enemy uplinks. He should be able to lay minefields, he should be able run scans and report enemy movements, he should be able to sneak to an objective and hack. He should also occasionally be able to assassinate people, but not with great ease.
Sorry but your idea sucks ass. And that's not something im saying because I plan to play as a scout (with or without cloak), im very happy with my tanks, logistics and heavy suits. "Dropping uplinks and hunting enemy uplinks" = a ****** idea and a waste of time for the scout player and a waste of manpower for the team that the scout player belongs to. Dropping uplinks doesen't earn you enough warpoints to make it worth being a dropsuits "main role", and destroying enemy uplinks earns you even less. "Lay minefields": really? So you seriously think that mines are very effective/useful in this game?  "Run scans and report enemy movement": Intel kill assists doesen't earn you enough warpoints either, and if the cloaked scout is supposed to be relegated to this role then it pretty much delands that the player has to have a mic in order to be most useful (making it a bad game mechanic, because the game shouldn't rely on/require that all players have/use headsets). "Hacking objectives" = A more viable source of warpoints yes, BUT everyone can already sneak up to objectives and hack them (whats the point with using a cloak then?). The problem with hacking objectives is that as soon as they get hacked, the entire team is alerted due to the objective icon flash, which would make the cloak useless because the enemy already knows the objective is being hacked. The only way I see making it worthwhile is if the cloak also cloaks the scouts hacking attempt (i.e no icon flash alert), that way the cloak could actually be useful in the way that the scout can sneak past enemy guards at an objective and have a realistic chance at hacking an objective to completion before the enemy guards respond. All in all though, I don't see a viable reason to dislike the idea or cloaked combatants. I say bring it on! They're still only puny, pathetic scouts that die easily, and I think it's safe to assume that most seasoned videogamers have encountered some sort of cloaked/invisible opponents before and know how to deal with them (the multiplayer in Killzone 3 has cloaked scouts and they're hardly "gamebreaking")
Your basic complaint is that these actions don't provide you with sufficient warpoint whoring, therefore the idea is useless.
You are totally ignoring the strategic importance of forming a beachhead, laying mines (which do work, ask the tankers that curse me every day), voice comms, and reporting enemy movements... just because you don't get a gold star for the individual action.
Whenever I look at the playerlist in a match, I will be grateful every time you're NOT on my team. |
KA24DERT
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Posted - 2014.03.26 02:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
So, how those cloaks working out?
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KA24DERT
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544
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Posted - 2014.03.29 06:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:KA24DERT wrote:
However, I do think that cloaking has a place in this game, not as a combat scout, but as a cloaky engineer/saboteur.
In my mind, the cloaky scout role should be focused on scurrying behind enemy lines and dropping uplinks while hunting enemy uplinks. He should be able to lay minefields, he should be able run scans and report enemy movements, he should be able to sneak to an objective and hack. He should also occasionally be able to assassinate people, but not with great ease.
Sorry but your idea sucks ass. And that's not something im saying because I plan to play as a scout (with or without cloak), im very happy with my tanks, logistics and heavy suits. "Dropping uplinks and hunting enemy uplinks" = a ****** idea and a waste of time for the scout player and a waste of manpower for the team that the scout player belongs to. Dropping uplinks doesen't earn you enough warpoints to make it worth being a dropsuits "main role", and destroying enemy uplinks earns you even less. "Lay minefields": really? So you seriously think that mines are very effective/useful in this game? "Run scans and report enemy movement": Intel kill assists doesen't earn you enough warpoints either, and if the cloaked scout is supposed to be relegated to this role then it pretty much delands that the player has to have a mic in order to be most useful (making it a bad game mechanic, because the game shouldn't rely on/require that all players have/use headsets). "Hacking objectives" = A more viable source of warpoints yes, BUT everyone can already sneak up to objectives and hack them (whats the point with using a cloak then?). The problem with hacking objectives is that as soon as they get hacked, the entire team is alerted due to the objective icon flash, which would make the cloak useless because the enemy already knows the objective is being hacked. The only way I see making it worthwhile is if the cloak also cloaks the scouts hacking attempt (i.e no icon flash alert), that way the cloak could actually be useful in the way that the scout can sneak past enemy guards at an objective and have a realistic chance at hacking an objective to completion before the enemy guards respond. All in all though, I don't see a viable reason to dislike the idea or cloaked combatants. I say bring it on! They're still only puny, pathetic scouts that die easily, and I think it's safe to assume that most seasoned videogamers have encountered some sort of cloaked/invisible opponents before and know how to deal with them (the multiplayer in Killzone 3 has cloaked scouts and they're hardly "gamebreaking") Your basic complaint is that these actions don't provide you with sufficient warpoint whoring, therefore the idea is useless. You are totally ignoring the strategic importance of forming a beachhead, laying mines (which do work, ask the tankers that curse me every day), voice comms, and reporting enemy movements... just because you don't get a gold star for the individual action. Whenever I look at the playerlist in a match, I will be grateful every time you're NOT on my team. Don't know if you've noticed but your income of isk largely depends on "warpoint whoreing". How are you supposed to get by as a ******* MERCENARY if your contribution to the battle doesn't earn you any money? (money that you NEED to stay in business). Your "counter argument" has to be one of the most ******** I have encountered on these messageboards yet...
So, the solution to your described problem isn't to re-assess the distribution of warpoints based on valuable actions, it's to spurt out some censored name-calling?
Dude, you say that sneaking off a hack has no merit, you say dropping uplinks and doing scans is a waste of a scout, and you say that voice comms shouldn't be required...
You've basically outted yourself as a player who has never successfully used teamwork in this game to accomplish anything of note, and your opinions will be considered accordingly. |
KA24DERT
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
544
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Posted - 2014.03.31 05:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Operative 1171 Aajli wrote:I don't even think a scout should be able to be a ninja assassin. I'd like to see the scout be a scout. However, the flow of combat and style of game play this game has makes scouting a useless, largely undesirable endeavor.
I try to perform that duty as best I can, but I run solo because I don't think anybody really cares about scouts feeding intel. There are no other specific mods, features or equipmemt to facilitate scouting as a desired role either.
Well, that's point of the idea.
There are features and equipment that facilitate the idea: scanners, uplinks, invisible hacking. You are right that the short timespan and of battles puts a low ceiling on the payoff, but anyone that plays competitively in this game would love a dedicated person to get scans, drop links and hacks in a sneaky manner. |
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