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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
667
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tiericide? Really, I can't believe I am seeing this again. It is not tiericide if you are just removing stuff, thats an outright removal. Lets remember that the tiers have a purpose, to give some experience before going all in to a potentially bad choice. IMO suit bonuses and tiers are a separate issue and should be kept separate.
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
670
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Posted - 2014.01.10 12:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Tiericide? Really, I can't believe I am seeing this again. It is not tiericide if you are just removing stuff, thats an outright removal. Lets remember that the tiers have a purpose, to give some experience before going all in to a potentially bad choice. IMO suit bonuses and tiers are a separate issue and should be kept separate. You're kidding right? My proposal follows the current Assault Dropship path, let's you get into suits, try them out much earlier with much lower skill point investment and gives you the full range of slots.
No I'm not kidding. Your proposal is really poorly thought out. Removing suits to use at this point is a bad idea, we haven't even got all the racial suit lines yet. Try inserting brain first.
Edit: FFT The average user of a class suit has 2 types of suit they can now use, the class suit and the generalized size variant without bonuses. Removing that second choice is where it becomes an issue.
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
671
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Try inserting brain first. I'm here to present a concept and debate it's merits. With that comment you just invalidated your input. Draco Cerberus wrote:I am really not sure why you would want to vanilla the classes up unless you have been suffering from protostomp ass burn, which I tend to cause even in my meta 1 gear. You contradict yourself with that statement, tough guy.
There are no benefits to your proposal other than for new players to streamline their skill choices into a given class, you tout your wares and offer no reason for their necessity. For instance, all the SP spent on the general suit before the class specialization would have to go somewhere and although I raise valid points for not doing this you ignore them and go to the vanilla part, my somewhat lack-de-wit reparte as a contradiction rather than discussing my reasoning with me, sure I may contradict myself but the proto involved is not the level of gear but rather the level of skills. Your idea is flawed, try arguing why it isn't.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
671
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Posted - 2014.01.10 14:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:There are no benefits to your proposal other than for new players to streamline their skill choices into a given class, you tout your wares and offer no reason for their necessity. For instance, all the SP spent on the general suit before the class specialization would have to go somewhere and although I raise valid points for not doing this you ignore them and go to the vanilla part, my somewhat lack-de-wit reparte as a contradiction rather than discussing my reasoning with me, sure I may contradict myself but the proto involved is not the level of gear but rather the level of skills. Your idea is flawed, try arguing why it isn't. Many players feel the basic frames are pointless and wasted SP. The gap between rookies and veterans is also very discouraging to the rookies. This idea is an attempt to close the gap and dramatically reduce the skill points required to get into the specialized suits without undermining the benefits of putting a lot of skill points into them. CCP can either rework the basic frames to make them useful for something other than a very short stepping stone between militia and specialized or eliminate them and change how a rookie goes from militia to specialized. I've mentioned Assault Dropships because I get the feeling that is how they may rework skill progression. In their case they chose to keep the basic dropship but with the minuscule amount of SP required you can jump straight in Assault Dropships without a grind. I think that is a great model for dropsuits too. If they want to rework basic frames though they need to be cheaper than specialized and they need to have some sort of bonus so that skills have a bit more impact on them.
Did you know that although some people choose to skill up to lv5 of the general suit, there is no need to do this and you can already at a low sp level get into a class suit? Also the idea that all slots would be open on the suit that replaces the tiers leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, X suit has at Meta 1 LvL 2H/2L/3E (minmatar logi) now proto has 4H/4L/4E, this demonstrates to the user that there is progression and that the goal to reach it has benefits. Many players in this game have come from COD and other non team based games as well as from other genres of games, this kind of progression is intuitive, just like how to fire the AR.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
672
|
Posted - 2014.01.10 14:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:
If they want to rework basic frames though they need to be cheaper than specialized and they need to have some sort of bonus so that skills have a bit more impact on them.
This was done to encourage players to specialize, having bonuses and whatnot would go counter to the idea that being in an assault dropsuit is a benefit due to the added bonuses.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
672
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Posted - 2014.01.10 14:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:
Many players feel the basic frames are pointless and wasted SP. The gap between rookies and veterans is also very discouraging to the rookies.
Many players should have taken advantage of the optional SP respec when CCP offered it (when they changed requirements for proto suits). The gap would be much smaller. Lv3 in the general suit is all that is required and I believe exactly what you said you wanted, a mirror of the Assault Dropship skill progression.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
672
|
Posted - 2014.01.10 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Did you know that although some people choose to skill up to lv5 of the general suit, there is no need to do this and you can already at a low sp level get into a class suit? Also the idea that all slots would be open on the suit that replaces the tiers leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, X suit has at Meta 1 LvL 2H/2L/3E (minmatar logi) now proto has 4H/4L/4E, this demonstrates to the user that there is progression and that the goal to reach it has benefits. Many players in this game have come from COD and other non team based games as well as from other genres of games, this kind of progression is intuitive, just like how to fire the AR. I appreciate the concept but my problem with having level one suit at 2/2/3 and a level three suit at 4/4/4 is that the rookie is using basic modules with provide less benefit per slot compared to the veteran that is placing all high end modules in each slot. Let's take shield tanking for example. A rookie may be using two basic extenders at 22 hp each (plus a bit of skill bonus) in two slots giving 44+ hp. They are also using a basic weapon with no damage bonus from skills. They now approach a single veteran that knows the terrain and has a high end bonused weapon. That veteran has all four high slots filled with 66 hp (plus max skill bonus) shield extenders for 264+ hp. I don't remember the shield skill numbers at the moment. Add in armor and it gets really bad. The shield difference alone is over 200 hp. Now add in the damage dealing potential of the veteran's better weapon and skills and you have a rookie that is wandering off to another game. The intention behind this change is to let that rookie have four shields extenders that still only give less than one third the defensive capability of the veteran. Armor has less of a skill gap but the concept still applies. As the rookie works on his supporting skills he can slowly start replacing those weak modules with stronger modules and bring him closer to being competitive with the veteran. This change would still give a rookie 12 militia suits to pick from and then be able to pick from 20 and soon to be 24 specialized suits. If the basic frames were reworked that would give an additional 12 suits to the roster. If CCP could focus on delivering and balancing 48 suits they could then move on to customizable frames or more specialities.
Insert brain here: Proto has 4/4/4 slot layout advanced is 3/3/3 and standard is 2/2/3. Rookies will always have a gap to skill up, even vets do given the speed at which a booster user gains sp vs unboosted. The rookies can have the benefits of 4 extenders when they earn them just like the rest of us, until then if you don't like it I hear there is a new COD out where everyone is equal with just the need to unlock weapons making the classes different.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
672
|
Posted - 2014.01.10 14:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:
If they want to rework basic frames though they need to be cheaper than specialized and they need to have some sort of bonus so that skills have a bit more impact on them.
This was done to encourage players to specialize, having bonuses and whatnot would go counter to the idea that being in an assault dropsuit is a benefit due to the added bonuses. A skilled player should still get some benefit from the basic frames. If we compare to EVE then the militia dropsuit is a rookie ship, the basic frames are tech 1 and specialized suits are tech 2. The tech 1 ships still get bonuses but they are more generic. The tech 2 get bonuses that emphasized their intended role. We could make all basic frames have something like this. Granted, it's being made up on the spot. Light: +2% to sprint speed or -2% to profile per level. Medium: -2% to racial weapon fitting requirements. Heavy: +2% to racial defensive buffer efficacy. Those benefits could carry over to the specialized frames or they could be replaced. The specifics are another conversation.
A skilled player should be past using them, unless they want to dumb down to be nice. It is a filler it is meant to be the training suit, it is not meant to be the one a player stays with for a long time.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
672
|
Posted - 2014.01.10 14:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:
Many players feel the basic frames are pointless and wasted SP. The gap between rookies and veterans is also very discouraging to the rookies.
Many players should have taken advantage of the optional SP respec when CCP offered it (when they changed requirements for proto suits). The gap would be much smaller. Lv3 in the general suit is all that is required and I believe exactly what you said you wanted, a mirror of the Assault Dropship skill progression. A good move on CCP's part but it did make the prototype basic fairly unappealing. There needs to be something updated on them to make them more common. Happy to have this discussion but I'm hitting the road. I'll be back in a day and may even check in at some point in between. Maybe some of this will spark something in the designers. o7 Reav
You sir are an idiot. No sorry not an idiot, misinformed and not willing to read responses, ignoring the truth of the way things are won't make them different through your rose coloured glasses. Enjoy your thinking spot, you really need it.
LogiGod earns his pips
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