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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1527
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Posted - 2014.01.08 13:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Put me firmly in the no respec crowd, can't even guess as to how many times I said on these forums, go shove your core flaylock up your cal logis a$$, you don't get a respec.
They hurt the game, they are contrary to the core tenet that your decisions matter, and the more they give them, the more people, will start whining for them every patch. Don't even get me started on the idea of pay-to-win respecs, I might have a stroke.
But...
If 1.8 (or 2.0, might be more representative) actually does pull in all these new bonuses, and all the new suits, at least a dropsuit tree respec is in order. Full respec? I dunno, I mean I don't see why people need to make major changes to their core upgrades, those help everyone.
Why this and not a respec of weapons with the new sidearms and the recent 2 new rifles? Well, weapons are actually the least of all of the SP sinks in the game, I mean, everyone got the new rifles to proto in like a week. Takes a lot longer than that for a suit.
Choices do matter, but not if CCP forced you to make a false one because they released an incomplete game. If all I had right now was a minmatar heavy I would not be happy about it, I'd want to get that dirty duct tape covered women's self defense class target suit off me 5 minutes after the new one was released.
With all the suits out, it's almost like actually being out of beta. A fresh start for people using gear they were forced to use, not chose because it was OP, is quite fair.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1531
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Posted - 2014.01.08 15:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:John Demonsbane wrote: Full respec? I dunno, I mean I don't see why people need to make major changes to their core upgrades, those help everyone. If the stuff on SiSi lands how it is currently listed you are looking at changes that basically touch almost every part of the skill tree. Also with the way many suits have bonuses tied to specific weapons or damage types the weapon skill tree is affected as well even if not directly.
I'm not necessarily against a full respec, I'm simply pointing out that core skills are not necessarily something someone would want to skill out of if they really gave it some thought.
I mean, OK, you lost your hacking bonus for your min logi suit. Pretty lame, though imo that really should be a scout bonus. Anyway, your suit has a different role now. Thing is, if you like that role, why would you want to get rid of your hacking SP?
I find it hard to believe that those people who loved their speedy hacker suit are suddenly going to take all the SP out of hacking and put it into rep tools. I'm guessing they would take their dropsuit respec and put it into whatever suit is now supposed to fill that role.
That's only one example, and like I said, I'm not really against a full respec. This thread is to get all the respec discussion out of the other threads into one place so it can be debated in a more focused manner. I'm also glad to see I managed to induce rage in at least one person with the bait and swich intro to the thread, lol.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1532
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Posted - 2014.01.08 16:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
RKKR wrote:CCP changing their game goes against your claim of "they [respecs] are contrary to the core tenet that your decisions matter".
Who's stupid now?
I dunno, people who don't read the whole post?
(That's two)
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1532
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Posted - 2014.01.08 17:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Yes, it's clear that you don't know, I could make an asshat post too that I made this post was a bait too but I won't. (I guess I read more than only the first paragraphs of your post, Yikes!) You still talk about a limited respec. Maybe some infantry oriented players want to focus on vehicles(because those skills were changed too you know) instead? Maybe vehicle users want a infantry suit now...they didn't had the choice to make the decision for 'this' or 'that' suit before. Maybe I won't need some core skills if I decide on a different suit? Maybe they help everyone in the long run, not on the short run...especially not for the new players. ... Judging from your first sentence...I guess you are just butthurt about those old times when you got raped by caldari suits with flay locks.
Good for you, maybe you did read the whole thing. I guess it might have been more clear had you said anything that would indicate that to be true. Either way, you're no fun. But, more to the point:
- I tend to disagree with the all-too-frequent contention that respecs help new players the most, as opposed to people in, say, the 10-15 mil SP range (maybe up to 20). They get the most benefit. Noobs barely get enough back to matter, and people like my CEO with 30+ mil, quote "have proto crap I never even use, just because I can." (I realize that's not your real argument but I'm pointing it out)
- I've already said here that I'm not totally against a full respec in this scenario. However, I make the argument that I don't necessarily see the point in refunding things like core skills, who doesn't need those? (e.g., the minnie logi example I gave Kain Spero on page 2.)
But, whatever, if you guys want to go all nerd rage if you only get a dropsuit tree respec and not a full respec, it hardly matters to me. My whole point in the OP was that even a respec natzi like myself sees a clear rationale for one if 1.8/2.0 turns out like the wild speculation currently making it's way across the forums.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1541
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Posted - 2014.01.09 03:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Added a TL;dr to the OP to make my opinion more clear
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1554
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Posted - 2014.01.09 14:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
RKKR wrote:How are we supposed to discuss anything if you're ignoring other arguments that partial respecs are as stupid as no respecs?
lolwut? You must be speaking about "arguments" someone else made, the few questions you posed I responded to to an extent. Otherwise I see nothing you've contributed but some half-assed attempts at insulting me. ("Are you a girl?" was my favorite, that's very clever)
I'll try rephrasing it again one last time. I am making the argument that at least a partial respec is well in order considering all the information (much of it speculative, of course) we're seeing about what may be in 1.8.
An argument could also be made for a full respec, but I don't think it's as clear-cut and may not be something CCP wants to do for a few reasons, these are some but not all of them:
- No substantive weapon changes (that we know of) and the weapon tree is not nearly the SP sink as the others, which is why nobody seemed to care about overmuch about getting a respec for rifles in 1.7.
- The vehicle tree just got redone and refunded 3 weeks ago.
Core skills are a little more complicated. Yes, they are a big SP sink. But, with 3 exceptions (links, hives, reppers) every single one of them is valuable for virtually every class.
- One argument I've heard is the much-discussed minnie logi bonus. People love their speedy hacker suits. "Oh noes now my hacking SP has been wasted". Why? How many of those people are going to take all their SP out of hacking and put it into rep tools? Not many, I'd wager.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1555
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Posted - 2014.01.10 00:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Dear John, An insult is something like telling "if you guys want to go all nerd rage". ASKING something like "Are you a girl?" is just a question...you could have easily told me that you are not. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but feel free to point fingers for trying to insult someone . I see that you state that I'm referring to someone else's statements and yet you mention "I'll give you that one" later in your text. Actually what the hell does it matter if I refer to someone else or not? Nothing...so it's funny that you suddenly react to it, no? You can rephrase whatever you want, but that still doesn't make it logical to only give a partial respec instead of a full respec. If you have trouble understanding that, you should read some more respec-'whining' posts because some arguments explain it pretty well. but well let's cut all this bullshit and let me ask you this? Why are you against respecs? Because decisions matter? Some people based their decision on a specific suit/skill/bonus. Ever thought about that If those choices weren't there in the first place that people would have made other decisions? You might not be wrong that people would want those skills back, but maybe not in the same order, maybe they want to put it in other stuff first, maybe not at all? Changing stuff will steal their "decision" away...something you seem to be against, so why are you against respecs? If decision would really matter, then CCP would test things thoroughly first before implementing it (and stick with their decision to keep it like that), which they don't... I hope all you anti-respec guys finally understand that the decision thing is just a myth.
Pretty sure I've explained why already. Ah well, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree then, your opinion is clearly not subject to change.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1558
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Same could be said about you John, so don't try to push my opinion in a corner like I'm some twit that won't change his mind no matter what.
I know I'm not the one that started from the premise that 'decision matter' and then go on rationalizing that a partial respec is fine for reason that go against the original premise.
I also like the fact that some people against respecs say you will have enough SP to skill up your stuff, but are afraid that respec will cause imbalances, it will happen anyway because it's made possible by bad game design, not 100% respecs. It's time to realize that this GAME is not perfect.
*bangs head against wall* My opinion is evidently subject to change unlike yours because it did. The original premise is also a false premise in this one particular instance. Ridiculous.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1558
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kraw Zin wrote:Respecs don't hurt anyone and can help the game
That's categorically untrue for reasons bethhy already outlined.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1559
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Posted - 2014.01.10 15:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Nope, as partial respecs are as stupid as no respecs at all. For reasons said above by me and other peeps. It still seems like you just have trouble with people that specced into stuff because they were OP and I'm not sure at all why you kept talking about 'decisions matter' in your OP if you think it's false anyway? John Demonsbane wrote:Kraw Zin wrote:Respecs don't hurt anyone and can help the game That's categorically untrue for reasons bethhy already outlined. Duuuuh, It's no point summing up the fails of this game as there are too many, sticking it all to SP respecs is just silly, because it's gamedesign that's at fault not the respecs. Having respecs or no respecs won't solve the problem. I'm in favor for respecs, but yeah the game needs to be fixed first, untill that time it won't matter if we get respecs or not in the meantime because it all will be broken. After that it will make sense to debate respecs, not now. Sometimes I think that people against respecs think this game is already in a finished State.....
No reasonable person would suggest this game is anywhere near complete. I sure wouldn't. And no, respecs are not to blame for all it's ills, that's a no brainer.
But that does not make them automatically a good idea, either. They aren't a good idea when something OP gets fixed or a bonus changes or 1-2 new toys are introduced.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1560
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Posted - 2014.01.10 15:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
This is getting circular and tiresome, and I have no idea why I'm even bothering with it. I wasn't even trying to make a strong case for only a partial respec in the first place, just wanted to get a reasonable dicussion started. (and yes, pull people in with an amusing bait and switch thread title)
That was a fool's errand. Have your full respec when all the suits come out, I don't f*cking care.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1560
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Posted - 2014.01.10 15:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
RKKR wrote: Edit: Seems that the monkey is finally out of the sleeve..
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that particular saying. I'm curious what it means, though.
(p.s. I am genuinely curious, so please let me know what it means... but don't kid yourself into believing that just because someone gets tired of explaining themselves, you had the better argument)
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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