DUST Search - [Feedback] How to balance Swarm Launchers

Foundation Seldon wrote:

There are two main problems with the Swarm Launcher that I believe should be addressed.

1. The baseline power, what should be available immediately from MLT/STD levels

2. The progression among tiers, how the weapon scales as you level up into it.

I'm of the opinion that, with the current damage levels, Proto swarms are the only Swarms that truly represent a threat to any vehicle that can be called out on the field. They're the only level of swarms that do enough damage in enough time to be worth doing more than laughing, turning on your hardeners, and gunning down the person using a weapon that costs more than my entire tank. Is it acceptable for a weapon that leaves you completely vulnerable to all the other infantry on the field and is dedicated purely to the act of taking out vehicles to be useful only at the prototype levels?

If anything I believe that, if PRO Swarms are the only variant that are able to even barely act in their intended role, they should be the basis for the damage output we expect from the very first level we put into them. The damage output of proto swarms should be applied to the Militia / STD level.

The immediate problem that comes with this thinking is the way the Swarm Launcher progresses through the tiers, one extra missile per tier accounts for a significant increase in the overall damage output of the weapon. If we're giving the STD Swarms PRO damage output with 4 missiles (basically rolling them back to what they were pre-1.7 with 330*4 Damage per volley) then they again become a weapon that will have its damage output be significantly outpaced by the higher tier variants of the weapon.

From STD -> ADV your damage output increases by 25%, from ADV -> PRO it's going up 20%

This far outpaces the damage output increase seen in pretty much any other weapon type as you progress through its tiers. The fix to this progression however seems obvious to me.

Lower tier Swarms have higher damage per individual missile but lower total damage.
Higher tier Swarms have lower damage per missile but higher total damage

In this way we can close the gap between STD and Proto variants of this weapon and make sure that Standard level swarms are useful without turning the weapon into a monstrosity as you skill into it further.

Tankers, before you get your panties in a bunch what I'm essentially asking is as such :
Bring Swarm damage for STD levels back to what they were pre 1.7 (current proto level) and then adjusting the damage output per missile to make sure they don't get out of hand from that baseline.

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Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie 348	Posted - 2014.01.06 12:59:00 - [1] - Quote There are two main problems with the Swarm Launcher that I believe should be addressed. 1. The baseline power, what should be available immediately from MLT/STD levels 2. The progression among tiers, how the weapon scales as you level up into it. I'm of the opinion that, with the current damage levels, Proto swarms are the only Swarms that truly represent a threat to any vehicle that can be called out on the field. They're the only level of swarms that do enough damage in enough time to be worth doing more than laughing, turning on your hardeners, and gunning down the person using a weapon that costs more than my entire tank. Is it acceptable for a weapon that leaves you completely vulnerable to all the other infantry on the field and is dedicated purely to the act of taking out vehicles to be useful only at the prototype levels? If anything I believe that, if PRO Swarms are the only variant that are able to even barely act in their intended role, they should be the basis for the damage output we expect from the very first level we put into them. The damage output of proto swarms should be applied to the Militia / STD level. The immediate problem that comes with this thinking is the way the Swarm Launcher progresses through the tiers, one extra missile per tier accounts for a significant increase in the overall damage output of the weapon. If we're giving the STD Swarms PRO damage output with 4 missiles (basically rolling them back to what they were pre-1.7 with 330*4 Damage per volley) then they again become a weapon that will have its damage output be significantly outpaced by the higher tier variants of the weapon. From STD -> ADV your damage output increases by 25%, from ADV -> PRO it's going up 20% This far outpaces the damage output increase seen in pretty much any other weapon type as you progress through its tiers. The fix to this progression however seems obvious to me. Lower tier Swarms have higher damage per individual missile but lower total damage. Higher tier Swarms have lower damage per missile but higher total damage In this way we can close the gap between STD and Proto variants of this weapon and make sure that Standard level swarms are useful without turning the weapon into a monstrosity as you skill into it further. Tankers, before you get your panties in a bunch what I'm essentially asking is as such : Bring Swarm damage for STD levels back to what they were pre 1.7 (current proto level) and then adjusting the damage output per missile to make sure they don't get out of hand from that baseline. Saga v. Methana Balance
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois Maphia Clan Corporation 52	Posted - 2014.01.06 13:25:00 - [2] - Quote Remember we are still dealing ONLY with Basic and MLT tanks. If in the year 2047 CCP decides to add more tanks, or to resume the old Marauder (which I've never seen, but barn's tales speak about an invincible vehicle) even your PRO SL will be good to nothing. PRO SL should be able to be a *serious* threat for all tanks, so your idea would be good only for poor fitted tanks and LAVs. If I decide to use a PRO weapon which costs more than an entire vehicle, hell I want to tear apart everything with wheels/engines/ any moving system different than a pair of human legs. If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
X7 lion Swamp Marines 66	Posted - 2014.01.06 13:42:00 - [3] - Quote you do realize swarms would be less unbalanced if there where simply countermeasures for them, such as flares. becuse without cover or timing out there travel time swarms are a garenteed hit
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie 349	Posted - 2014.01.06 13:58:00 - [4] - Quote X7 lion wrote: you do realize swarms would be less unbalanced if there where simply countermeasures for them, such as flares. becuse without cover or timing out there travel time swarms are a garenteed hit Changing damage numbers around would be decidedly easier than trying to implement an entirely different mechanic to the game. Countermeasures are great but we're not even at a point where Swarms are worth using countermeasures against, one step at a time. Saga v. Methana Balance
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois Maphia Clan Corporation 53	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:30:00 - [5] - Quote X7 lion wrote: you do realize swarms would be less unbalanced if there where simply countermeasures for them, such as flares. becuse without cover or timing out there travel time swarms are a garenteed hit Good idea but very hard to implement. The reason is the same behind the request to remove the internal mine-detector: using a module left / right would be more useful for a tank instead of the other. Link: Removing mine detection from tanks Also, remember that tanks can evade enemy missiles by simply "sprinting" at least 200 m. away from the SL. If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 8	Posted - 2014.01.15 07:22:00 - [6] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: There are two main problems with the Swarm Launcher that I believe should be addressed. 1. The baseline power, what should be available immediately from MLT/STD levels 2. The progression among tiers, how the weapon scales as you level up into it. I'm of the opinion that, with the current damage levels, Proto swarms are the only Swarms that truly represent a threat to any vehicle that can be called out on the field. They're the only level of swarms that do enough damage in enough time to be worth doing more than laughing, turning on your hardeners, and gunning down the person using a weapon that costs more than my entire tank. Is it acceptable for a weapon that leaves you completely vulnerable to all the other infantry on the field and is dedicated purely to the act of taking out vehicles to be useful only at the prototype levels? If anything I believe that, if PRO Swarms are the only variant that are able to even barely act in their intended role, they should be the basis for the damage output we expect from the very first level we put into them. The damage output of proto swarms should be applied to the Militia / STD level. The immediate problem that comes with this thinking is the way the Swarm Launcher progresses through the tiers, one extra missile per tier accounts for a significant increase in the overall damage output of the weapon. If we're giving the STD Swarms PRO damage output with 4 missiles (basically rolling them back to what they were pre-1.7 with 330*4 Damage per volley) then they again become a weapon that will have its damage output be significantly outpaced by the higher tier variants of the weapon. From STD -> ADV your damage output increases by 25%, from ADV -> PRO it's going up 20% This far outpaces the damage output increase seen in pretty much any other weapon type as you progress through its tiers. The fix to this progression however seems obvious to me. Lower tier Swarms have higher damage per individual missile but lower total damage. Higher tier Swarms have lower damage per missile but higher total damage In this way we can close the gap between STD and Proto variants of this weapon and make sure that Standard level swarms are useful without turning the weapon into a monstrosity as you skill into it further. Tankers, before you get your panties in a bunch what I'm essentially asking is as such : Bring Swarm damage for STD levels back to what they were pre 1.7 (current proto level) and then adjusting the damage output per missile to make sure they don't get out of hand from that baseline. I agree with the problem. Here is my simple solution: 1. Remove Proficiency training from Swarm Launcher skill tree. (Reduces maximum proto SwL damage by 15%) 2. Revert Swarm Launcher damage to pre 1.7 levels. (Brings non-proto SwLs back to relevance.) Fixed.


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