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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2050
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Posted - 2014.01.04 21:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:N1ck Comeau wrote:Tanks prices are the problem. There too good for there cost.
Increase prices so when i work to kill one, he can't afford to call in 3 more. Great so when it comes to that match where a tanker with 20MIL SP comes along on their side and has an overpowered tank, not only can I not beat without nearly 8 peopel doggedly following this one guy, I can't even afford to get a tank in to deal with him either brilliant. As it is now, instead you'll pop him, but he'll deploy 50 more. I do it all the time. It doesn't matter how much I die. Usually, a group of MLTs will pop my AP HAV. Then I pull out my AV HAV and pop all of them, redeploy as AP HAV, go on my merry way. My current asset level is still 3m higher than last week including alts and tank stocks.
Either way, everyone is screwed, because the price is not the only problem. MLT tanks are also not the only problem in terms of strength; I pop them all day long. A good AV tank can wipe 3-4 MLTs in minutes. Sure, I get killed by them occasionally. I still pop five times more of them than they do of me. I 2HKO Sicas before than can even harden and Somas are a 3HKO with my cheap AV Madrugar. One FW, two MLTs are going around to flank, I catch them at the side, blow them up in a 2v1, continue and pop another on a hill, pop 3 more throughout the match. However, once the Ion Cannons are deployed, you're screwed. Those things shred infantry 200m out along with the majority of HAVs that aren't other Ion Cannons or specially tailored for burst defense and offense. With the sheer power of current tanks, tanks needs to be cheap enough just to shred other tanks, otherwise everyone goes negative because one guy pulled out a Madrugar. The price needs to rise and then, in addition, Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades need to be buffed in damage so that you need less tanks to fight tanks.
EDIT: Also, obviously, certain things such as stacked hardeners and blaster range need to be looked at.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
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Posted - 2014.01.04 23:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:N1ck Comeau wrote:Tanks prices are the problem. There too good for there cost.
Increase prices so when i work to kill one, he can't afford to call in 3 more. Great so when it comes to that match where a tanker with 20MIL SP comes along on their side and has an overpowered tank, not only can I not beat without nearly 8 peopel doggedly following this one guy, I can't even afford to get a tank in to deal with him either brilliant. As it is now, instead you'll pop him, but he'll deploy 50 more. I do it all the time. It doesn't matter how much I die. Usually, a group of MLTs will pop my AP HAV. Then I pull out my AV HAV and pop all of them, redeploy as AP HAV, go on my merry way. My current asset level is still 3m higher than last week including alts and tank stocks. Either way, everyone is screwed, because the price is not the only problem. MLT tanks are also not the only problem in terms of strength; I pop them all day long. A good AV tank can wipe 3-4 MLTs in minutes. Sure, I get killed by them occasionally. I still pop five times more of them than they do of me. I 2HKO Sicas before than can even harden and Somas are a 3HKO with my cheap AV Madrugar. One FW, two MLTs are going around to flank, I catch them at the side, blow them up in a 2v1, continue and pop another on a hill, pop 3 more throughout the match. However, once the Ion Cannons are deployed, you're screwed. Those things shred infantry 200m out along with the majority of HAVs that aren't other Ion Cannons or specially tailored for burst defense and offense. With the sheer power of current tanks, tanks needs to be cheap enough just to shred other tanks, otherwise everyone goes negative because one guy pulled out a Madrugar. The price needs to rise and then, in addition, Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades need to be buffed in damage so that you need less tanks to fight tanks. EDIT: Also, obviously, certain things such as stacked hardeners and blaster range need to be looked at. I disagree, you want more tanks to fight tanks, BUT you need other methods. If you need to you can use AV, but a tank has better suitability and impacts less on your squad makeup. Thus it is more beneficial but not necessary. Tanks need to remain cheap, enough that there will always be tanks activem not a 2min scrap at the begiining followed by 1 side dominating the rest of the match. This is meant to be all out war. The thing is a lot of people believe a tank should last you a couple of matches. I thourghly disagree, I believe a couple of mlt tanks should last you a match. A well fitted HAV at around 110k means you can be blown up twice then survive to make money. Which is plenty fair. The problem with tanks at the moment is the inability for Infantry Units to effectively engage Tanks when required. I'm not talking about alph ering a tank in under 10secs. But you should at least make a tanker retreat EARLIER than usual, upon penalty of death. A std tank with adv Mods should see someone with Proto AV and soil his undies, because that tanker knows that he isn't gonna be able to stick around long with Proto AV on the field. That doesn't mean the AV can kill him, but he will certainly be capable of making the tanker run back to the redline with his tail between his legs. I want less tanks to be required to fight tanks, which is what I wrote at the end of the post. I also want more expensive tanks because the pricing makes no sense. Even with better AV, cheap tanks can still be spammed. There needs to be a dent in the wallet, otherwise popping a tank just means another is deployed immediately after, which has little satisfaction.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Shooty Dangerman wrote:Tank prices should be doubled across the board.
The fact that you can call in two militia tanks per ambush, lose both of them, and still break even, is the main reason for tank spam.
The duration of all hardeners should be halved.
Force the pilots to use them sparingly and strategically instead of turning them on whenever they take an ounce of damage.
Both these changes would also force tanks to retreat more often making harassing AV a more effective role.
Coming from an AV guy, these are the only two changes tanks really need. High prices only makes it so people with unlimited isk are OP, instead of everyone. I have like 500 mil isk, I could run expensive tanks for a VERY long time. I am broke compared to the top 10% in this game. high prices also make it less spamable and make u take a risk. sort of like a titan in EVE not everyone can buy it but it sure is powerful and still can be destroyed by other sources. There is a reason why titans were nerfed pretty hard, because people like you thought the isk amount would prevent spammage. Do you know what happened? BoB just spammed doomsdays leveling entire fleets, and built tones of them. Then the titan got nerfed and the supercarrier became the new FotM. Everyone and their mother got supercarriers as well because they were solopwn mobiles. Supercarriers got nerfed too. I think everyone, including most tankers, want tanks in the game and I like that there are between 4-8 tanks per match. I just don't like how they have no hard counter. 1 player should ALWAYS be counterable by 1 player. This is the basis of balance. EDIT: High prices do not make something less spammable, it only makes it so some of the playerbase can spam, not all of it. Like I said, I could spam for a VERY LONG time and I am broke compared to quite a few in this game. It makes it less spammable for the majority of the population. Other changes also need to be made to balance things out.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote: It makes it less spammable for the majority of the population. Other changes also need to be made to balance things out.
So your argument is that only some people should have god mode? ISK needs to be part of the solution. You are using a strawman argument to defend keeping prices low. Yes, there are some players that can still afford spamming more expensive vehicles. Let me extend the line for you.
Tanks are now all free and fully fitted, placed in every player's fittings. Has spam improved? Just because some players can afford to do it anyway doesn't mean everyone should be able to spam them. No ****. There are players with enough money to spam anything. There will always be some aspects of Dust that are pay to win.
If prototype gear was free, you'd say it shouldn't be made expensive because there would still be players spamming it. If you don't like the resource management in Dust 514, then it's not the game for you, plain and simple. Some degree of accessibility needs to be removed, because the ultimate accessibility is free which leads to endless spam with no repercussions for ANYONE.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote: It makes it less spammable for the majority of the population. Other changes also need to be made to balance things out.
So your argument is that only some people should have god mode? ISK needs to be part of the solution. You are using a strawman argument to defend keeping prices low. Yes, there are some players that can still afford spamming more expensive vehicles. Let me extend the line for you. Tanks are now all free and fully fitted, placed in every player's fittings. Has spam improved? Just because some players can afford to do it anyway doesn't mean everyone should be able to spam them. No ****. There are players with enough money to spam anything. There will always be some aspects of Dust that are pay to win. If prototype gear was free, you'd say it shouldn't be made expensive because there would still be players spamming it. If you don't like the resource management in Dust 514, then it's not the game for you, plain and simple. Some degree of accessibility needs to be removed, because the ultimate accessibility is free which leads to endless spam with no repercussions for ANYONE. I paraphrased your argument, I did not set up a strawman. You argument is that by increasing the cost it is ok to have god-mode tanks. My argument that no matter the cost of something, no one should have god mode. CCP tried your way of doing things with titans and suppercarriers in eve, they learned this does not work. They have since stopped doing that. Do you know why they stopped doing that? Because it doesn't work. There were two lines to my post. One was to increase prices, the other was to make other balancing changes. Apparently, you paraphrased a single line. It is not OK to have god-mode tanks. They should be less effective while also costing a bit more. I can more easily run a profit in MLT HAVs than on the ground in ADV gear and that it really, really stupid.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 00:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Jake Bloodworth wrote:BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Jake Bloodworth wrote:If tanks require teamwork to take down, they should require teamwork to drive or survive. As it is, I think a massive speed/mobility nerf will effectively fix tanks vs av(except swarms, they suck bad). Tanks should be tough, but they should be punished for that high health with low speed.
Stop this lolnitrous bull crap that allows tankers to escape their own stupidity. When a tank's hardeners go down after a firefight, the enemy should be dead or the tanker should be forced to except the consequences of failing to neutralize the enemy. Tanks should be the lumbering death machines of Dust. Right now their over gunned race cars. a heavy AV weapon can solo a tank. light AV requires more than one because it is light. what's the point of light AV if it is just as strong or stronger than heavy AV. You may be the only person denying the under powered nature of swarms. They lost damage AND range. Also this Light weapon BS is a rumor created and perpetuated by the playerbase(tankers actually). Not the developers. Finally, you really quoted my post to talk about a small parenthesis I added about a neutered weapon? I don't use the swarm. I don't have a single point in them, but I can at least acknowledge they suck right now. i know the nerf and before they were raping me. they needed one. now whether u believe the swarms did 2.5 k damage to me or not is a different story. Swarms with 3-4 complex modifiers, proficiency 5 against armor can do about that much. The majority of the player base is stuck in shitfits doing half of that, though, plus shield tanks can still tank through proto swarms easily enough.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 00:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:CCP LogiBro wrote:Tanks still feel too strong in 1.7 and AV is not strong enough to stop them - Thread | Thread WeGÇÖll need to do something about MLT tanks. We will see to rebalance some PG/CPU for equipment and more. More details will come in a dev blog/forum post. This is just wrong. Standard tanks are already MUCH better than militia. This idea that the"problem" is just with militia tanks is not correct. OH and to go from militia tanks to standard tanks cost what, 100k sp? The problem is the av balance with tanks. STD is only 1 more slot and and a miniscule amount more pg/cpu than MLT and you callz it "MUCH" better Try A Sica... Then A Gunlogi bud. Somas are more balanced. The 2 slots means they need 1 repper, thus have 1 slot left. If this is a hardener, their reps are too low so you can pop them even through hardeners easily enough. If they have 2 reppers, anything but light AV will shred them. Madrugars don't have enough additional CPU/PG over Somas, though, to make full use of that additional slot. Somas have enough CPU to fit a rail, amp, hardener, repper and nitrous no problem, which is nutty. Sicas are touchier. That 3rd slot, if put towards a hardener or boosters, has definite advantages. It's harder to gauge because 2 slots is enough to gain enormous burst defense of offense for a short period of time, plus the native reps mean that a slot doesn't need to be wasted on that.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2056
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 00:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Also, as for being "much" better, what can you expect for a 50k increase in cost? Most of the price of the tank comes from the turret. If you use low level turrets like me, you can build some very cheap STD tanks. When someone's STD tank costs 500k it's because they fitted a proto turret, not because they used a STD hull.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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