Sounds like a fun battle. I think you're just describing the zero-sum game of the infantry AV - they aren't needed anymore since tanks can do a better job at killing other vehicles than any infantry weapon, so just summon a tank instead. Of course if your team didn't maintain tank dominance from the beginning they are at a disadvantage.

ur complaining ur tank didn't die when you turned on 3 60% hardeners on...

sure u were god mode for 30 secs or whatever, but after words u are as weak as crap, since u turned them on all at the same time.

Today I was running with some guys from Die Valkyrja, a few of them running tanks and, of course, me running my Gunnlogi. I go to make a sandwhich () and come back to find an Ambush has started and we're losing by around 20 clones. I deploy and see our tanks getting popped, right through hardeners, by 6-8 guys running prototype Swarm Launchers and Forge Guns. I remember a few guys from "NO Nyain" and "Mottainai Japan" at the top of the board. Well, I deploy my cheap little hardener brick. I lose a couple tanks using a number of hardeners. It was interesting to see how the damage stacked up.

Final tank, I use all 3 hardeners. I'm sitting 30m away and there are so many Swarms in the air, the WHOLE SCREEN is practically covered in a flock of them. It's unbelievable that this is even Dust. The lag was incredible and I could barely even see through the explosions. There must've been 4 swarms in the air at once, they all impact, 24 modded rockets hit me, they do maybe 600-700 damage over a few seconds and I think, "that's it?" I just sit there, mowing them down. They're launching swarm after swarm, forge after forge and I'm taking damage, but at a slow rate, and I'm killing them faster than they can keep up the DPS, even though they are sitting on half a dozen Alloteks and Wiyrkomis beside a Supply Depot. Eventually, the last Forge Gun falls and they die spawning in.

Well, we go from being cloned by about 15 to cloning them by about 15 after I pulled out my triple hardener and we pushed through. I honestly did not think we could win. Very high twenties kills, made 500k (paid for my tanks; I use cheap tanks) and even got 3 Balac's. Was not first on the board, a Logistics was, if I was I probably would've made 600k.

Price of tank? 160k ISK.

This happens to varying degrees in all modes once one side achieves tank dominance and the other side cannot deploy without ten thousand rail shots blowing them out of the sky. Infantry pick up AV, infantry discover AV weapons fire marshmallows, infantry get headshot from 120m away by a militia blaster while running across a desert from point A to point B. Even concentrated AV efforts can be easily defeated by one tank stacking hardeners and it's gotten to be ridiculous. It's like one guy double/triple hardens and now you need your whole team to all launch Forge Guns at once to instapop him or everyone dies.

Obviously, this is an extreme example; there are very few scenarios where popping all 3 is needed to negate damage. Usually 1 or 2 negates all the AV being tossed your way and this can be sustainable. When the crap hits the fan, you can go all in and sit there for half a minute killing whoever you want and their whole team can be dedicated to stopping you and fail. Doesn't seem balanced to me. Anyone with a tiny amount of SP in tanks can pull out a 120k Gunnlogi with 3 Basic Hardeners, pop all 3, drive right through the enemy lines and get over a dozen kills before popping, provided they don't flee. No other role can just make themselves invincible and kill whoever they want. You can't take a Heavy, run into the middle of 12 guys in proto gear and kill a dozen of them while standing still and sponging all of their fire, directed at you, just because they don't have another Heavy doing the same thing.

Right. In Ambush, usually some stupid redberry deploys a LAV, so their HAVs deploy late and get popped on deployment. From there, everyone gets to spawn inside the "smart" deploy circle of doom, throw one AV grenade and die. Domination is similar on some maps, with tanks being popped unless being deployed close enough to the friendly redline. 3-Point Skirmish often depends on who has the most rail tanks.

Really, my point is, that I should not be able to negate the damage from several proto AVers with any module set up; especially such a cheap throwaway one. It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team.

If they have that many AV in one place doing their job, all set up, my HAV should die; sacrifices are made in their killing power of infantry to do so. If the infantry aren't taking out the AV, I shouldn't be able to "lolharden" and wipe out 20 of them.

I respect your candour - you're one of the few tankers that actually gives a critical view of the situation. Of course there's an issue, and until CCP let us know how they are going to fix it I think we'll have to live with this for some time. I'm doubtful of a full fix for this by 1.8 because I think the fix will be from a few angles (modifying vehicles, modifying infantry and modifying maps).

If and when CCP introduces drop suit hardeners, they can

No the tanks are fine said no av guy ever. No av is fine said no tanker ever

Right. In Ambush, usually some stupid redberry deploys a LAV, so their HAVs deploy late and get popped on deployment. From there, everyone gets to spawn inside the "smart" deploy circle of doom, throw one AV grenade and die. Domination is similar on some maps, with tanks being popped unless being deployed close enough to the friendly redline. 3-Point Skirmish often depends on who has the most rail tanks.

Really, my point is, that I should not be able to negate the damage from several proto AVers with any module set up; especially such a cheap throwaway one. It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team.

If they have that many AV in one place doing their job, all set up, my HAV should die; sacrifices are made in their killing power of infantry to do so. If the infantry aren't taking out the AV, I shouldn't be able to "lolharden" and wipe out 20 of them.

Were they firing when the hardeners were up? or down?

Think about that for a few seconds.... Also "Ambush" that kind of invalidates your entire argument, as it is an open field with little-to-no cover. The entirety of Ambush has always been broken to redlining bum-rushers. Albeit there is no redline to be forced back to, but it's the same system, and it really shouldn't be because of the game mode.

In other words, you're complaining about the game mode and environment, not tanks....

While this sounds like a fine reason for AV to rage, it doesn't change that I want to see that hell storm from your PoV

Final tank, I use all 3 hardeners. I'm sitting 30m away and there are so many Swarms in the air, the WHOLE SCREEN is practically covered in a flock of them. It's unbelievable that this is even Dust. The lag was incredible and I could barely even see through the explosions. There must've been 4 swarms in the air at once, they all impact, 24 modded rockets hit me, they do maybe 600-700 damage over a few seconds and I think, "that's it?" I just sit there, mowing them down. They're launching swarm after swarm, forge after forge and I'm taking damage, but at a slow rate, and I'm killing them faster than they can keep up the DPS, even though they are sitting on half a dozen Alloteks and Wiyrkomis beside a Supply Depot. Eventually, the last Forge Gun falls and they die spawning in.

What I gather from this is Hardeners are broken.
Did I get that right?

ur complaining ur tank didn't die when you turned on 3 60% hardeners on...

sure u were god mode for 30 secs or whatever, but after words u are as weak as crap, since u turned them on all at the same time.

This doesn't make the thread reek of trollpost to you?

What turret were you using? And did you have extra seats in use, or were you just solo?

I commenly punch right trough hardened tanks with my rail gun Sica, Usualy 5 shots to get through shields and 1 to get through armor.

My take on Borne's testimonial is that three Stacked Hardeners are broken. He's got me curious how well two Hardeners fare against squaded AV.

Although I wasnGÇÿt there, but I saw my people is talking about you yesterday afternoon, nice job bro!
http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/mw1024/4443a2bfgw1ec6cy4kjfbj20dc07i0tx.jpg

It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team.

infantry AV - they aren't needed anymore since tanks can do a better job at killing other vehicles than any infantry weapon, so just summon a tank instead.

Although I wasnGÇÿt there, but I saw my people is talking about you yesterday afternoon, nice job bro!
http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/mw1024/4443a2bfgw1ec6cy4kjfbj20dc07i0tx.jpg

What about when being repped by a proto rep tool (or 3)?