DUST Search - The Hoarde vs Triple Hardened Gunnlogi

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:

Borne Velvalor wrote:

Justicar Karnellia wrote:

Sounds like a fun battle. I think you're just describing the zero-sum game of the infantry AV - they aren't needed anymore since tanks can do a better job at killing other vehicles than any infantry weapon, so just summon a tank instead. Of course if your team didn't maintain tank dominance from the beginning they are at a disadvantage.

Right. In Ambush, usually some stupid redberry deploys a LAV, so their HAVs deploy late and get popped on deployment. From there, everyone gets to spawn inside the "smart" deploy circle of doom, throw one AV grenade and die. Domination is similar on some maps, with tanks being popped unless being deployed close enough to the friendly redline. 3-Point Skirmish often depends on who has the most rail tanks.

Really, my point is, that I should not be able to negate the damage from several proto AVers with any module set up; especially such a cheap throwaway one. It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team.

If they have that many AV in one place doing their job, all set up, my HAV should die; sacrifices are made in their killing power of infantry to do so. If the infantry aren't taking out the AV, I shouldn't be able to "lolharden" and wipe out 20 of them.

Were they firing when the hardeners were up? or down?

Think about that for a few seconds.... Also "Ambush" that kind of invalidates your entire argument, as it is an open field with little-to-no cover. The entirety of Ambush has always been broken to redlining bum-rushers. Albeit there is no redline to be forced back to, but it's the same system, and it really shouldn't be because of the game mode.

In other words, you're complaining about the game mode and environment, not tanks....


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Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2004	Posted - 2014.01.02 10:47:00 - [1] - Quote Today I was running with some guys from Die Valkyrja, a few of them running tanks and, of course, me running my Gunnlogi. I go to make a sandwhich () and come back to find an Ambush has started and we're losing by around 20 clones. I deploy and see our tanks getting popped, right through hardeners, by 6-8 guys running prototype Swarm Launchers and Forge Guns. I remember a few guys from "NO Nyain" and "Mottainai Japan" at the top of the board. Well, I deploy my cheap little hardener brick. I lose a couple tanks using a number of hardeners. It was interesting to see how the damage stacked up. Final tank, I use all 3 hardeners. I'm sitting 30m away and there are so many Swarms in the air, the WHOLE SCREEN is practically covered in a flock of them. It's unbelievable that this is even Dust. The lag was incredible and I could barely even see through the explosions. There must've been 4 swarms in the air at once, they all impact, 24 modded rockets hit me, they do maybe 600-700 damage over a few seconds and I think, "that's it?" I just sit there, mowing them down. They're launching swarm after swarm, forge after forge and I'm taking damage, but at a slow rate, and I'm killing them faster than they can keep up the DPS, even though they are sitting on half a dozen Alloteks and Wiyrkomis beside a Supply Depot. Eventually, the last Forge Gun falls and they die spawning in. Well, we go from being cloned by about 15 to cloning them by about 15 after I pulled out my triple hardener and we pushed through. I honestly did not think we could win. Very high twenties kills, made 500k (paid for my tanks; I use cheap tanks) and even got 3 Balac's. Was not first on the board, a Logistics was, if I was I probably would've made 600k. Price of tank? 160k ISK. This happens to varying degrees in all modes once one side achieves tank dominance and the other side cannot deploy without ten thousand rail shots blowing them out of the sky. Infantry pick up AV, infantry discover AV weapons fire marshmallows, infantry get headshot from 120m away by a militia blaster while running across a desert from point A to point B. Even concentrated AV efforts can be easily defeated by one tank stacking hardeners and it's gotten to be ridiculous. It's like one guy double/triple hardens and now you need your whole team to all launch Forge Guns at once to instapop him or everyone dies. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2004	Posted - 2014.01.02 10:59:00 - [2] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Sounds like a fun battle. I think you're just describing the zero-sum game of the infantry AV - they aren't needed anymore since tanks can do a better job at killing other vehicles than any infantry weapon, so just summon a tank instead. Of course if your team didn't maintain tank dominance from the beginning they are at a disadvantage. Right. In Ambush, usually some stupid redberry deploys a LAV, so their HAVs deploy late and get popped on deployment. From there, everyone gets to spawn inside the "smart" deploy circle of doom, throw one AV grenade and die. Domination is similar on some maps, with tanks being popped unless being deployed close enough to the friendly redline. 3-Point Skirmish often depends on who has the most rail tanks. Really, my point is, that I should not be able to negate the damage from several proto AVers with any module set up; especially such a cheap throwaway one. It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team. If they have that many AV in one place doing their job, all set up, my HAV should die; sacrifices are made in their killing power of infantry to do so. If the infantry aren't taking out the AV, I shouldn't be able to "lolharden" and wipe out 20 of them. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2004	Posted - 2014.01.02 11:16:00 - [3] - Quote BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: ur complaining ur tank didn't die when you turned on 3 60% hardeners on... sure u were god mode for 30 secs or whatever, but after words u are as weak as crap, since u turned them on all at the same time. Obviously, this is an extreme example; there are very few scenarios where popping all 3 is needed to negate damage. Usually 1 or 2 negates all the AV being tossed your way and this can be sustainable. When the crap hits the fan, you can go all in and sit there for half a minute killing whoever you want and their whole team can be dedicated to stopping you and fail. Doesn't seem balanced to me. Anyone with a tiny amount of SP in tanks can pull out a 120k Gunnlogi with 3 Basic Hardeners, pop all 3, drive right through the enemy lines and get over a dozen kills before popping, provided they don't flee. No other role can just make themselves invincible and kill whoever they want. You can't take a Heavy, run into the middle of 12 guys in proto gear and kill a dozen of them while standing still and sponging all of their fire, directed at you, just because they don't have another Heavy doing the same thing. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2011	Posted - 2014.01.02 22:39:00 - [4] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: I respect your candour - you're one of the few tankers that actually gives a critical view of the situation. Of course there's an issue, and until CCP let us know how they are going to fix it I think we'll have to live with this for some time. I'm doubtful of a full fix for this by 1.8 because I think the fix will be from a few angles (modifying vehicles, modifying infantry and modifying maps). Agreed. This is a complicated issue and it'd be hard to balance the different aspects of AV and HAV interactions all at once. RuckingFetard wrote: If and when CCP introduces drop suit hardeners, they can I think adding them to dropsuits at such a high level would make combat too complicated. No one can keep track of who has what hardeners available and they have the potential to be gamebreaking if not implemented properly; there needs to be proper counters, otherwise anyone in a STD suit could harden, walk right through a barricade and wipe everyone. Essentially, what happens with tanks at the moment. Lower level resists, maybe 20% or very high fitting costs could balance them out. Jacques Cayton II wrote: No the tanks are fine said no av guy ever. No av is fine said no tanker ever There are tankers and AV on both sides of the argument. Also, while it's basically impossible to strike a balance everyone is happy with, it could be better. Most everyone I know has major issues with tank balance. Tanks now have passive reps running 24/7 that are two times stronger than old active reps, still with a 40% resist. Shield tanks are achieving 60% resistance the whole game, 100% of the time and can stack for 80-90% resistance for relatively long periods of time, while still regenerating. Militia Blasters are killing infantry 150m away in seconds. MLT tanks are actually the least of my worries, since I can consistently pop these easily enough. It's still difficult to take out a 0 SP Soma/Sica, but it can't sit there for ten minutes straight soaking up FG rounds farming kills, leave for 30 seconds, double harden and pop a rail tank coming at it. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2012	Posted - 2014.01.03 00:05:00 - [5] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Justicar Karnellia wrote: Sounds like a fun battle. I think you're just describing the zero-sum game of the infantry AV - they aren't needed anymore since tanks can do a better job at killing other vehicles than any infantry weapon, so just summon a tank instead. Of course if your team didn't maintain tank dominance from the beginning they are at a disadvantage. Right. In Ambush, usually some stupid redberry deploys a LAV, so their HAVs deploy late and get popped on deployment. From there, everyone gets to spawn inside the "smart" deploy circle of doom, throw one AV grenade and die. Domination is similar on some maps, with tanks being popped unless being deployed close enough to the friendly redline. 3-Point Skirmish often depends on who has the most rail tanks. Really, my point is, that I should not be able to negate the damage from several proto AVers with any module set up; especially such a cheap throwaway one. It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team. If they have that many AV in one place doing their job, all set up, my HAV should die; sacrifices are made in their killing power of infantry to do so. If the infantry aren't taking out the AV, I shouldn't be able to "lolharden" and wipe out 20 of them. Were they firing when the hardeners were up? or down? Think about that for a few seconds.... Also "Ambush" that kind of invalidates your entire argument, as it is an open field with little-to-no cover. The entirety of Ambush has always been broken to redlining bum-rushers. Albeit there is no redline to be forced back to, but it's the same system, and it really shouldn't be because of the game mode. In other words, you're complaining about the game mode and environment, not tanks.... Ambush is the best environment to test this, as it has the most players in one small area. However, I had a similar Domination (we lost by a bit; blueberries couldn't do anything, I was solo) where the enemy team had several AV on me the whole match. The only maps I don't see tank dominance on are usually 5-point Skirmish, as those maps are large enough and varied that it takes a lot of tanks to shut them down. It's worst in Ambush but not exclusive to Ambush. DUST Fiend wrote: While this sounds like a fine reason for AV to rage, it doesn't change that I want to see that hell storm from your PoV I wish I had it on film. It was hilarious. There were so many explosions and lag that I couldn't even see to shoot for parts of it, at which point I used the scan markers to kill instead. Sadly, I do not record gameplay. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2019	Posted - 2014.01.03 08:05:00 - [6] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: What turret were you using? And did you have extra seats in use, or were you just solo? Solo, Militia 80GJ Blaster. 160k HAV, 3 Enhanced Shield Hardeners. Beck Weathers wrote: I commenly punch right trough hardened tanks with my rail gun Sica, Usualy 5 shots to get through shields and 1 to get through armor. I commonly take 0-200 damage from Rail Guns. I stack hardeners. I still die to preempts, not having hardeners ready and being outlasted due to my crappy turret, though. Rusty Shallows wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: What I gather from this is Hardeners are broken. Did I get that right? My take on Borne's testimonial is that three Stacked Hardeners are broken. He's got me curious how well two Hardeners fare against squaded AV. You have a bit more than 82% resistance with 2 stacked hardeners. This shuts down 99% of enemy AV attempts and is almost impossible to kill in a 1v1 against anything but an amped or prototype Rail Gun as the damage is completely nullified; even an amped Ion Cannon. The only time I've needed 3 is in the scenario above, 2-3 decent rail/blaster tanks hitting me at once or a triple amped proto rail. My point is that stacked hardeners in general are OP, 3 obviously being the most hilarious. What's also OP is that the enemy has no way to know how many you have activated by looking at you. Sometimes I activate 2, the enemy can't damage me, 30 seconds later when the 2 fall I activate my 3rd and, even though he has the DPS to kill me now, he doesn't realize it because there was no gap in my hardeners. Cyncia Gaess wrote: Although I wasnGÇÿt there, but I saw my people is talking about you yesterday afternoon, nice job bro! http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/mw1024/4443a2bfgw1ec6cy4kjfbj20dc07i0tx.jpg A screen shot, that is sweet. Thanks, CEO of an awesome corporation. I looked at my wallet and we had won 10 matches in a row that day. The tanker on that squad with the 80GJ Neutron Blaster Madrugar was good. I'm surprised they actually talked about it/got a picture. At the beginning, I remember at least 1 more member from Mottainai, but I think he left towards the end and it filled with a random. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2020	Posted - 2014.01.03 09:37:00 - [7] - Quote Bunny Demon wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: It's not like a STD Heavy can gain infinite HP for 30-60 seconds at a time and clone half an enemy team. What about when being repped by a proto rep tool (or 3)? I was not aware that my tank required 4 players to operate and that killing the other 3 players removed my hardeners. Also, the solution to said Heavy is a Forge Gun OHKO. Multiple players firing at once can also kill him. Still less OP than my hardeners, aside from the massive WP generated. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2021	Posted - 2014.01.03 09:39:00 - [8] - Quote Cyncia Gaess wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Cyncia Gaess wrote: Although I wasnGÇÿt there, but I saw my people is talking about you yesterday afternoon, nice job bro! http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/mw1024/4443a2bfgw1ec6cy4kjfbj20dc07i0tx.jpg A screen shot, that is sweet. Thanks, CEO of an awesome corporation. I looked at my wallet and we had won 10 matches in a row that day. The tanker on that squad with the 80GJ Neutron Blaster Madrugar was good. I'm surprised they actually talked about it/got a picture. At the beginning, I remember at least 1 more member from Mottainai, but I think he left towards the end and it filled with a random. Thank you! Please join "ECF" channel and play with us if you want. This is a Public Group Channel, we play public contracts or Team Deploy FW every night (UTC 12-15). Maybe next time I can show you a video instead a screenshot. :P I will make room for it in my channels, thanks. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2046	Posted - 2014.01.04 05:03:00 - [9] - Quote Nitrobeacon wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Without hardeners a particle cannon can one shot you so you are vulnerable to alpha damage. Yes, this ^. Try to use a mix of all shield modules, too much hardeners results in the above statement. The other two shield modules will help defend when your hardeners are offline. A double amped particle cannon hits for over 3000 shield damage. When hardeners are offline, if such a high damage enemy appears, I'm dead regardless of everything else usually. Boosters don't add enough health; an amped particle cannon might be delayed by 1 shot if you have one and activate it before the second shot kills you, same with extenders. They work well in combination with hardeners that are up, though. I like Booster + 2 Hardeners as well, since usually no matter what happens you're going to have nearly full double hardened shields before you can die. If I'm the one preempting, I'd rather have 2x hardeners, but the booster has a faster cooldown, which is nice. Lately I've been using a double amped rail Madrugar for AV and it is pretty good. It's nice to be able to take an RG round and still have HP to harden and not having to wait forever to start regenerating. The natural RG resistance helps, too. 2HKO's unhardened shield tanks. First shot drops 95% of the shields, next shot kills. I get killed a lot while cooling off since I'm not used to the longer cooldown of the basic armor hardener versus the enhanced shield hardener I have on my Gunnlogi, though. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.