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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
129
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Posted - 2013.12.31 19:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Almost everyone (even Tankers) agree that the Current Swarm Launchers are almost completely ineffective with anything less than PROTO level Launchers/Skills.
Here is a proposal for Swarm Launcher Balance that I have been thinking about for quite a while and I believe will bring the MLT/STD/ADV swarm launchers into effective usability without being overpowered, and only slightly increase PRO swarm launcher power.
1. Increase Lock-on Range to 250 M ... Almost Everyone agrees that 175 m is far too short and 400 m is far to long, the general consensus on the forums is that lock-on range should be 250 m.
2. Increase missile Speed to 75% of Missile Turret Speed ... Almost Everyone agrees that Swarm Missiles are far too slow and can easily be outrun by any type of vehicle. They're MISSILES, they're Supposed to much fly faster than the target they're fired at. Missile Turret missiles fly very fast and setting the Swarm Missile speed at 75% of Missile Turret speed would be about the right speed, to make them fast enough to hit their target, but slower than Dumbfire missile turrets to compensate for the guidance system
3. Make ALL Standard/Specialist variant Swarm launchers fire 4 missiles per volley with higher Dam./missile and increasing Damage for MLT/STD/ADV/PRO instead of increasing the number of missiles fired per volley.
MLT/STD Swarm - 4 missiles 320 Dam. ea. (1280 Dam/Volley)
instead of current - 4 missiles 220 Dam. ea. (880 Dam./Volley)
ADV Swarm - 4 missiles 330 Dam. ea. (1320 Dam/Volley)
instead of current -5 missiles 220 Dam. ea. (1100 Dam/Volley)
PRO Swarm - 4 missiles 350 Dam ea. (1400 Dam/Volley)
instead of current - 6 missiles 220 Dam. ea. (1320 Dam/Volley)
4. Make ALL Assault variant Swarm Launchers fire 6 missiles per volley with lower Dam./missile and increasing Damage for STD/ADV/PRO instead of increasing the number of missiles fired per volley.
STD Asslt. Swrm. - 6 missiles 220 Dam. ea. ; 1320 Dam./volley vs. Single Target or 660 + 660 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
instead of current - 4 missiles 220 Dam. ea. ; 880 Dam./Volley vs. Single Target or 440 + 440 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
ADV Asslt. Swrm. - 6 missiles 230 Dam. ea. ; 1380 Dam./Volley vs. Single Target or 690 + 690 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
instead of current - 5 missiles 220 Dam. ea. ; 1100 Dam./Volley vs. Single Target or 660 + 440 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
PRO Asslt. Swrm. - 6 missiles 250 Dam. ea. ; 1500 Dam./Volley vs. Single Target or 750 + 750 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
instead of current - 6 missiles 220 Dam. ea. ; 1320 Dam./Volley vs. Single Target or 660 + 660 Dam./Volley vs. Two Targets.
I realize that the Assault Swarm Damage is higher vs. Single Targets than the same level Standard/Specialist Swarm, but it is far less likely that all 6 Assault Swarm missiles will hit the target than all 4 Standard/Specialist Swarm missiles, which balances them out. And it will encourage some people to use the Assault variant, which is currently unused by almost everyone, to try to get that extra little bit of damage.
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
130
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Posted - 2013.12.31 19:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Flix Keptick wrote:As a tanker I agree with those changes, apart from the speed increase. If you want more speed you need less agility, 360-¦ dime-turning fast missiles would just be stupid.
Yes, missile agility would have to be reduced - I agree.
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
130
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Posted - 2013.12.31 19:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Swarms so hard to use QQ
Its why 2 infantry guys i know are soloing tanks with CBR7s lol
Lock range fine, you can fire all 3 in the clip in less than 4seconds and the missiles go upto 400m anyways
DMG fine
this is not a "QQ" thread, it is an honest attempt to propose a balance to the Swarm Launchers so that they aren't useless with anything less that PROTO.
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
130
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Posted - 2013.12.31 19:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
NO amount of player skill is going to make up for a MLT/STD Swarm Launcher doing only 880 Damage per volley.
That low of a Damage makes the weapon nearly useless vs. vehicles with thousands of EHP that can leave your engagement range before you can fire 3 Volleys.
and yes, I know what you're going to say next ... use Teamwork (or PROTO)... but even teamwork with MLT/STD Swarms isn't enough when they only have 880 Dam. per Volley.
and I already stated that PRO Swarms are OK, my proposal aims to raise the lower tier Swarms to be more relevant and effective in battle, and leaves the PRO Swarms Damage nearly as-is.
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
134
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:first off don't assume almost everyone agrees with anything because tht is just not true.
for example
who has ever said the missiles were to slow. they r fine now. if they were faster what would be the point of afterburners of dropships if they can't outrun them with it on.
and as for lock on range it is fine now. they shouldn't have as long range. now distance each missile goes on for is debateable.
but extra damage is needed as u posted. but it is still just light AV and should be no where near as strong as a forgegun as u posted.
If you have been reading the forum posts concerning Swarm Launchers since the introduction of 1.7 you would have seen that the general consensus is that the missiles are too slow, and Swarms need a longer lock-on range. Hence my assuming almost everyone agrees - obviously You do not - perhaps I should have stated general forum consensus instead of almost everyone agrees, my bad.
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
134
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Wallaby1 wrote:as a tanker i have to agree that swarms are just pathetic now , they work well as a harrasing area denial weapon but do not have sufficient range to effectively carry out there intended purpose , on top of that it now takes 3 swarm shots from an adv swarm to kill a mlt LAV with 0 reppers or mods?......pretty pathetic , i think the travel time of the rockets needs to be buffed big time because a lav and even hav's are literally outrunning the swarm rockets which shouldnt happen!
QFT from another thread
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
136
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Your proposal breaks the balance against dropships and militia lavs and also the 250m change means we are back to game breaking swarms covering 2 or more objectives from a single point.
You cannot balance AV using just damage and range. It will always result in an imbalance. Tanks, dropships and lavs share modules but tanks have more HP. Anything you do to balance against tanks with those 2 stats will break other vehicles, and even installations
Your OP is well constructed in itself, but not in the scheme of a multi vehicle game with limited map size. not a viable or fair solution to something that is not only about how hard you can punch and how long your arm is. Swarms are effective as they are. When used well. But all I see is swarmer a shooting hardened ships.
This proposal is designed for general balance vs. All vehicle types, not just HAV's, and does not break balance for Dropships and LAV's.
It currently takes 3 volleys from an ADV Swarm (without stacked Dam. Mods) to destroy a MLT LAV or Dropship and it's Very difficult to destroy Anything with a MLT/STD Swarm, and any type of vehicle can currently leave a Swarm 175m area of engagement easily before 3 volleys are fired.
This proposal will bring the MLT/STD Swarm to the 3 volley kill, and ADV Swarm to a 2 Volley Kill for MLT LAV's and Dropships (again, without Dam. Mods) while leaving the PRO Swarm almost the same.
The 250m range is Far lower than the previous 400 m range and in most cases would not allow Swarms to cover more than one objective unless positioned between them (where Anti-Infantry Infantry are running around, a Swarm Carrier w/sidearm would be an easy Kill) and if positioned near one objective, the Swarm would be at almost the range limit for any other objective so would not be effective cover for more than one.
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:That damage change will likely break the hardeners regen ceiling. A deliberate design decision to allow us to attack then retreat. The issue is not swarms, damage or range. Perhaps it is tank speed, price, map size, turret rotation, ammo count, 3rd person tank view..... Etc.
But it is not a simple as range and damage changes at this point.
The Current PRO Swarms do not break the Hardeners Regen Ceiling, and this proposal leaves them almost as-is. It attempts to bring the lower Tier Swarms up to a level where they would be an effective weapon in battle instead of their current, ineffective state. They would still be substantially weaker than the PRO Swarms, so the Hardener Regen Ceiling should not be an issue, but HAV's would not be able to stay in one area and absorb damage from multiple AV as they do now, they would actually Have to attack and retreat in waves of opportunity (as 1.7 design intended)
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
136
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Posted - 2014.01.01 18:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
ONE-I-BANDIT wrote:I believe the Intent of CCP was that an group of swarm launchers should be used to take tanks and the like out. Which is called team work. In too many cases I have seen ppl just camp to blow up tanks.
I agree, and this will still require AV Teamwork. it Currently takes Multiple PRO Swarm teamwork (most of the time, there are some Exceptional players who can regularly solo) to take out most vehicles. This Proposal just allows Lower Tier Swarms to be more effective, promoting Teamwork using lower Tier Swarms as well as PRO
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
136
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Posted - 2014.01.01 18:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:or just buff curent damage to 240
That is too simple of a shortcut.
That would not correct the problem of the huge difference in damage between the Swarm Tiers, firing 4,5,6 missiles, it would only make it worse. Firing 4 missiles at All Tiers with varying Damage allows for a more easily controlled progression of Damage from MLT - PRO
It would also not account for the issue of the multiple lock-on shots of the Assault variant vs. Two Targets firing 4,5,6 missiles.
If All Assault variant Swarms fired 6 missiles they would always be evenly split 3+3 vs. Two Targets. (instead of current ADV Assault Swarm split 3+2 with no choice of which of the Two Targets gets 3 missiles and which gets 2 missiles)
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
142
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Posted - 2014.01.04 17:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would like to thank everybody who participated in this discussion. (although I expected a bit more critique/suggestions)
The purpose of this thread was to present an Idea for Swarm Balance, invite critique/suggestions for improvement, and make adjustments before submitting to Feedback/Requests Forum.
Since the discussion has died down and no further input is being made, I will make the final edits to my Original Post and submit it to Feedback/Suggestions.
Again, Thank you everyone.
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