DUST Search - Why are Dust and EVE so different?

Vrain Matari wrote:

Darius Ashran wrote:

Surt gods end wrote:

Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them.

Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly.

Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!"
Not even kidding. "not a fps.."

The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left.

To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, many of the early adopting " Shooter veterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments.

Every poster on these forums with any sense at all, from EVE or pure console FPSs, was on CCP from the very beginning about the paramount importance of core FPS mechanics.

And a few months ago we were all sick to death of harping 'core mechanics, core mechanics' and the community kinda relaxed it's tone and gave CCP a soft go-ahead for content. I'm as guilty as everybody else, but that was a mistake.

Because to state the obvious yet again, said so many times before by so many others, content built on rotten foundations is guaran-f'in-teed turn to kittenpoop every time. That rule has been true forever and it is not going to change for CCP.

There's only one way out of this godawful mess and it's right up the frakin' middle.


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Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 35	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:37:00 - [1] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality . Unfortunately, the reason for this stark contrast in quality is very clear if you have been able to talk to the right people. So, if you want an answer. I can give you one for certain. Read on sir. The stumbling starts Starting around 2011, CCP had a not so minor snafu with outside investors demanding certain changes to see quicker returns. The results of this were the attempted monetization of the Incarna expansion by adding in the Nex shop and aurum. Without getting into the not so minor story about the PR problems related to that and some comments/internal notes related on the eve end that got publicized, this also resulted in further delays to an already behind schedule project that was Dust 514. (And no, don't believe the bullshit about protests ending it in eve. It was a pointed demonstration but it had a minor effect.) Later that year, CCP Iceland the main development office for EVE Online let go a good number of personnel and did a major internal restructure. Realizing they had in some ways very much created their own issues and problems, they sought to resolve the issues and IMO as a company did an amazing job. And it resulted in several very well received and excellent content updates over the following 2 years. To help bring together this information relevance, this resulted in CCP having a much more efficient use of development resources, better interdepartmental communications, less bugs, better content role out, and conceptualization before release. Stay with me, gents. This is where you start to care. In 2012 CCP finally announced and publicized DUST 514 to the community and a bit in the gaming press, as well. Mostly it was low key as far as general advertisement campaigns and IP awareness went. The big news, however, was that on May 2012 CCP was going to be opening the close beta for Dust 514. For those around (myself included), this was great news. And we, in alot of ways, got some of what we expected at first. A lol buggy as sin shooter that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling we get when we played EVE Online ( initially a lot of the earlier testers where EVE players). And at the time what we assumed these where classic CCP dev problems, over ambitious execution, not enough testing, and sprinkle some amazing concepts in. And that's pretty standard fair for CCP. But, as time went on into the Closed beta, we started to see a troubling... hell more like outright schizophrenic approach to development. Community communication was very poor. And malcontent started to set in among players, but was mostly kept in check by the " O_o Shiny!" Factor. Shift Now to CCP Shanghai. This gentlemen is the primary office that focuses on Dust 514s Development. It is not the same developers that have been making EVE Online. In point of fact, most of the team was new hire iirc. This may not be clear to some of you as to why this is such a big deal. Some might say " bah same company its same thing" not so. The internal communications issues between CCP Iceland and CCP shanghai, And perhaps more importantly the horrible mismanagement/ incompetent management of the developments teams and virtually no interdepartmental communication results in the, and forgive my bluntness, outright cluster **, that was closed beta development and the open beta/ PC launch. You had to be around to really appreciate how rough the development process was. It had its moments and it was fun sure. But from a development standpoint, you would think we had an executive producer with 11 personality playing with the controls after every major update. Radical changes that made virtually no sense at all, resulting in more work for the development teams to counter their mistakes. In some cases, having to backtrack release implementation of content entirely. Like proto tanks,Black ops tanks( invisible to radar). and lets not forget the early multi stage game modes. Some of this, to be fair, was related to some serious technical issues at CCPs end both inside and outside of the engine itself.( Like the horrible hit detection Q_Q) Most of it however was related to the problems in Shanghai. CCP at this time (roughly around the middle of 2013) decided that serious changes had to be made if Dust514 were to be kept away from tanking outright. So, the salvage efforts began in haste. The Shanghai officer got several new personnel and had many teams restructured and instructed on new interdepartmental communication expectations and the management was restructured with a a few firings and some new hiring. Enter the current " cycle"** Fast forward several months in 2013 from the launch of PC. It's around fall now. And CCP has brought in former EA Executive producer Jean-Charles Gaudechon, to be the new executive producer for Dust 514 at the CCP shanghai office. Around this same time, CCP also announced to the community they would start implementing the content update system as we now know it to be, with more frequent but smaller updates. They have also stepped up the dev/community communication, though many would argue it's still not enough.(True IMO) To bring this all home and give your your answer, good sir . Dust 514 has had a rough time and only recently has it been under proper management. It is not the traditional CCP staff that made EVE Online. But, they are improving and learning. Despite negativity and fatalistic appointments of doom, the game is only just now 7 months old. And, in that time, they have made some very positive, if incremental, progress. With some patience and some luck we will see the product we want. But it will take time to fully realize such an ambitious project, hopefully not as much as EVE did. Hope this helps
Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 42	Posted - 2013.12.31 23:16:00 - [2] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, man of the early adopting " Shooter verterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments.
Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 49	Posted - 2014.01.01 04:52:00 - [3] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Darius Ashran wrote: Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, many of the early adopting " Shooter veterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments. Every poster on these forums with any sense at all, from EVE or pure console FPSs, was on CCP from the very beginning about the paramount importance of core FPS mechanics. And a few months ago we were all sick to death of harping 'core mechanics, core mechanics' and the community kinda relaxed it's tone and gave CCP a soft go-ahead for content. I'm as guilty as everybody else, but that was a mistake. Because to state the obvious yet again, said so many times before by so many others, content built on rotten foundations is guaran-f'in-teed turn to kittenpoop every time. That rule has been true forever and it is not going to change for CCP. There's only one way out of this godawful mess and it's right up the frakin' middle. That issue inst in dispute from me, I agree 100% the original shooter mechanic where pretty awful. Not to mention the hit detection was just horrible. Unplayable sometimes even. However, the current implementation is a big improvement over that even with its problems. I could honestly do without the heavy handed aim assist though. I mean few games use pure raw input I know that. I think everyone does. But the aim assist they have now is just so.... lacking in subtlety is the best way I can think to phrase it. It overcompensates. Its far easier to run without it in general.