DUST Search - What do you mean tanks are balanced?

Seymor Krelborn wrote:

The Attorney General wrote:

Mitch Laurence wrote:

I can stand on my nanohive and spam AV grenades at a stationary tank until my hive gets depleted and the tank will still have full armor and a bit of shields left. (I just did it yesterday)

AV nades are not a viable option against tanks, anyone who says otherwise either hasn't used them post 1.7 or is lying.

Anyone who thinks that a homing grenade should be a primary AV weapon is a scrub.

Using them as a supplement to your primary AV weapon is still a functional way to use them. And it works.

Thinking that you deserved a anti infantry primary weapon AND a vehicle killer in the same suit with nuclear baseballs is not balance in any way, unless you want everything in a medium frame suit, which is the infantry motto I suppose.

the tanker motto isn't much different...

tankers want a death machine that takes half a team to kill and costs less than one of those attackers fits....

I find it so funny when tankers expect exactly what they knock AVers for requesting....


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
The Attorney General 1715	Posted - 2013.12.30 15:50:00 - [1] - Quote Mitch Laurence wrote: I can stand on my nanohive and spam AV grenades at a stationary tank until my hive gets depleted and the tank will still have full armor and a bit of shields left. (I just did it yesterday) AV nades are not a viable option against tanks, anyone who says otherwise either hasn't used them post 1.7 or is lying. Anyone who thinks that a homing grenade should be a primary AV weapon is a scrub. Using them as a supplement to your primary AV weapon is still a functional way to use them. And it works. Thinking that you deserved a anti infantry primary weapon AND a vehicle killer in the same suit with nuclear baseballs is not balance in any way, unless you want everything in a medium frame suit, which is the infantry motto I suppose. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 1715	Posted - 2013.12.30 16:03:00 - [2] - Quote Mitch Laurence wrote: Exactly right they are about as effective as a sidearm and people should stop advocating their use in 1.7. AV nades are completely useless against tanks period. Why the hyperbole? I advocate using AV nades on every AV fit you create, because they add substantially to your total damage output. They are not a primary AV weapon, but they are greatly effective as a supplement. Example: Call in a LAV, grab a forge fit with AV nades. Drive to the tank, bail, sending the LAV into the tank. Proceed to throw two or three nades, depending on if the tank has actually started to target you. Proceed to destroy the vehicle with the Forge gun. Before 1.7 dropped, it was extremely easy for anyone with AV nades to be a super tank destroyer, especially in pairs. Stopping that type of mechanic was an improvement in the vehicle - anti vehicle fight balance. This is not to say that other things don't need to be adjusted, because they do, but AV nades are not one of them. They actually function very well as supplemental AV. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 1715	Posted - 2013.12.30 17:01:00 - [3] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Mitch Laurence wrote: I can stand on my nanohive and spam AV grenades at a stationary tank until my hive gets depleted and the tank will still have full armor and a bit of shields left. (I just did it yesterday) AV nades are not a viable option against tanks, anyone who says otherwise either hasn't used them post 1.7 or is lying. Anyone who thinks that a homing grenade should be a primary AV weapon is a scrub. Using them as a supplement to your primary AV weapon is still a functional way to use them. And it works. Thinking that you deserved a anti infantry primary weapon AND a vehicle killer in the same suit with nuclear baseballs is not balance in any way, unless you want everything in a medium frame suit, which is the infantry motto I suppose. the tanker motto isn't much different... tankers want a death machine that takes half a team to kill and costs less than one of those attackers fits.... I find it so funny when tankers expect exactly what they knock AVers for requesting.... I don't think you understand that there are two very different dynamics that need to be accounted for. The first is the viability of any given tank fit versus infantry, and the second is the viability of that same fit versus other tanks. A tank can be good at one, but only by trading away effectiveness at the other. Tankers are very much forced to decide when they call out their tank what they want to be. They can either be very good at killing infantry, or very good at killing vehicles, but not both. In any situation where you have a tank that you can't seem to take out with AV, that tank would get rolled very quickly by a rail tank. Stop trying to distill everything down to tankers want to be god mode. It isn't accurate, it limits the options for real discussion, and it makes you like like a b*tch. Start contributing something instead of being a crybaby. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 1715	Posted - 2013.12.30 17:17:00 - [4] - Quote Mitch Laurence wrote: What'd you just call me? lol j/k. But seriously I'm not exaggerating. While AV nade spam used to be a viable tactic for dealing with tanks it simply is not now. To be clear I don't mean just those 3 nades in your inventory, I mean literally standing on a hive and throwing out 6-7 in sequence. I thought we were on the same page but we're not. Sure in your example, when combined with a myriad of weapons, equipment, vehicles and precise tactics AV nades can make a difference. But the reality of accomplishing a feat like you described on a routine basis is simply unrealistic. AV grenades are supposed to be an effective weapon to use against vehicles, just like locus grenades are supposed to be an effective weapon against infantry. The truth is that AV grenades are not an effective weapon against most tanks and even some dropships now. That needs to change. I never thought AV nade spam should have been a viable tactic, but that is my own opinion. I don't think that using AV nades requires much of anything else. The LAV for me is BPO, although you could use a MLT one for almost no ISK output. It just has to be a cheap chariot to ferry the fat suit and forge around. Precise tactics are not required, just some basic thought. Things like: - Do not drive directly at a vehicle that is looking at you. - Do not swerve back and forth while driving towards a tank that is potentially shooting at you. - Do drive laterally to outpace turret traverse before engaging in combat with a tank and so on. Cheap lav, cheap suit, expensive gun and grenades. Gets the job done consistently, and solo. Need to fight tank spam? Bring along a logi with their own AV nades and hives and watch the fireworks. It really boils down to your definition of what AV nades should do. I do not think they should be able to used as a primary AV weapon. Right now, they cannot, but they make a fantastic damage supplement, which is exactly how I think they should be. Obviously you feel differently, and I would be curious to hear why you think that it makes for good game balance for someone to be able to carry an AR and a vehicle killing grenade. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 1715	Posted - 2013.12.30 18:25:00 - [5] - Quote Mitch Laurence wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Obviously you feel differently, and I would be curious to hear why you think that it makes for good game balance for someone to be able to carry an AR and a vehicle killing grenade. Do I think tanks should be weak? No Do I think tanks should have weaknesses? Yes Do I think that there should be a direct correlation between a tank's weakness and AV weapons in general? Yes Do I think that 3 AV nades should blow up a tank? No, but what about 9? How about 15? The balance is that after you blow all your ammo hives on nades and run out of primary ammo you're rendered useless until you find someone else's hive or run to a supply depot. The imbalance is that even if you did land all 9 nades the tank isn't even damaged enough to justify the use AV nades. At a minimum AV nades should be a deterrent, currently they are not. I think we need to talk about fits here. There are certain Madrugar fits that can be built with a very high rate of repair. These types of fits are highly effective against infantry, but extremely weak versus other vehicles. An all rep madrugar gets absolutely pummeled by a Missile tank, or a rail gun, but is very strong against infantry based attacks unless there are enough people to produce high alpha strikes. This requires multiple people, or one of the previously mentioned vehicles. Having a discussion about if such a fit should be is a wholly different topic, but is a discussion worth having. Is it good for balance that a Madrugar can make a fit that can rep over 400hp/s? I don't think so, but we will have to see what CCP thinks on that. There are a lot of factors in play, not just simply that AV nades are weak. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 1716	Posted - 2013.12.30 19:46:00 - [6] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: stop trying to lump all of us who want balance into the "QQ tanks are hard" category , it limits the options for real discussion, and it makes you like like a b*tch. what AVers want is the ability, with skill to take out a tank solo, because an AVer needs to make the same choice a tank does, do I get in my AV suit and kill vehicles leaving me vulnerable to both infantry and vehicles or do I go infantry giving me no chance against the tanks. as infantry I should be able to choose to run av nades and either proxies or RE'S AND TAKE OUT A TANK SOLO, WITH SKILL....not QQ...fact. With a FG and nades, every tank goes down. You want to run a rifle and an av fit at the same time. So you want the best of both worlds. Which makes you a scrub. Choose either AV or anti infantry, you don't get both anymore, and thank CCP for finally coming to their sense about it. If you think you should be able to have a rifle and a potent AV fit on the same suit, you are delusional and deserve to be laughed at. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.