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Leonid Tybalt
DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 14:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I was thinking, low-sp players hardly find it funny to have to go up against whole squads of proto users (especially when they seem to focus primarily on killing noobs).But rather than restricting the use of proto gear (such a restriction wouldn't make sense) or nerfing proto suits and weapons, why not implement a system of tiered warpoint-rewards for kills?
I.e rather than getting 50 warpoints everytime you kill someone regardless of what suit you're using and suit your victim used, the points awarded are based on the differences in the tech level of the suits involved.
I.e a basic suit user killing another basic suit user gets 50 warpoints.
Adv vs Adv gets 50 and so on.
But if a basic user manages to kill an adv user he/she is awarded more than 50 warpoints (perhaps 60 or 70). While the adv user that manages to kill a basic user only gets 40 or 30 points per kill.
And if the gap in tech level is even wider (let's say proto against basic or mlt) then the basic/mlt user gets a whopping 100 wp for the kill while the proto user only gets a measly 10.
However, we still retain the current warpoint rewards for hacking objectives, providing healing, logistical support etc.
This way we wouldn't have to mess around with the power levels of the different tiers of tech, nerfing or buffing anything nor would we have to restrict players from doing the proverbial "bringing a gun to a knifefight" by spawning In a protosuit and slaughter newer players, because the lower warpoint-rewards ultimately lead to lower isk rewards making it more difficult for excessive proto users to make a viable profit or recoup their losses unless they are going up against other proto users.
It would also open up for more tactical matches where objectives are involved because players get more motivated to capture objectives and contribute towards victory for the team since the biggest rewards are shifted towards hacking and keeping objectives rather than run around looking for easy kills or engage in cowardly redline-sniping.
A similar mechanic could also be mplemented in tanks vs infantry scenarios. Where the tanker gets less warpoints for killing infantry due to the obvious difference in combat capabilities.
Lore-wise it would also make sense, because from a strategic and logistical perspective, getting good results by using as small means as possible to achieve it is something that any strategist would prefer (carpet bombing a town to the ground to kill a rebel group of 4 people in it works, but is hardly as cost efficient as sending in a small special ops team to sneak in and assassinate the targets) |
Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
204
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 15:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Easy way to do this is have base kill worth 20 wp then have a bonus based on the total meta level of all gear on a suit
So killing militia suits is worth less......I might be in favor of 20 wp plus 1 wp for each meta level......
Makes hunting proto suits much more profitable and makes might help balance wp issues |
PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
113
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is a copy of a post I made yestoday.
We all know about the vet proto stumping and risk vs reward problems but we also want to feel like gods in proto gear and kill newbees and also as a neewbee we want to get the OHH YEAH feeling of taking down a proto vet. We want players to be able to do it all and use it all and go where ever they want to be. The New Eden way=ƒÿÄ
This is some ideas i have been thinking about.
In Eve online we already have security zones, high, low and nul sec. Why not use them in Dust ?
High sec is where you start as a neewb, but you can still go there as an adv or pro vet but as a adv or pro vet in high sec battles you get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK. For all the things you do, pro vets would get a high penalty, advs a lower one, newbs would get the usual WP/SP for killing other newbs and get a bonus for killing adv and a bigger bonus for pros when they kill them. In high sec it all should be at a normal rate from somewhere between 0-10 mill. SP. All above 10 mill. SP. gets a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Low sec is where you want to go as soon as get to use advanced gear and weapons or from 10-20 mill. SP. If you want normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards even for killing a newb who is trying his/her luck or if you as a newb want a bonus for killing, but if you have more then 20 mill. SP. You still get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Nul sec is where the pro vets from 20 mill. SP. Want to be if they want a normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards but newbs and advs can still go there if they want to try there luck and get some bonuses for killing.
A newb should get 25% bonus for an adv kill and 50% for a pro kill no matter where the battle is.
An adv should get 25% bonus for a pro kill no matter where the battle is and a 25% penalty for a newb kill but only if the battle is in a high sec zone, if it's in low/nul sec it's still at a normal rate.
Pros should get a 25% penalty for an adv kill and 50% penalty for a newb kill if the battle is in a high or low sec zone, but still get the normal rate if the battle is in a nul sec zone.
PC and FW battles should ALL count as nul sec battles.
This way we can all still do what ever we want to do but there will be a bonus or a penalty a RISK VS. REWARD.
In Eve online i have noticed that there are NPC caravans flying around why not make more of them with different LVL's of protection and use them as a way of transport that a merc can hire to fly him/her to the place they want to go and get the materials we would need to craft BPO/BPC items, use the marked etc. They could even be used in a way where Eve pilots can still attack them and we as merc infantry and merc pilots could control cannons, missile launchers,drones etc. Onboard the NPC caravan.
WE NEED PVE TO. |
Leonid Tybalt
DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 15:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shadow Archeus wrote:Easy way to do this is have base kill worth 20 wp then have a bonus based on the total meta level of all gear on a suit
So killing militia suits is worth less......I might be in favor of 20 wp plus 1 wp for each meta level......
Makes hunting proto suits much more profitable and makes might help balance wp issues
Hmm, but wouldn't it be possible to mess around with a formula like that? Take a logi suit for instance, by filling your equipment slots with militia equipment you could artificially lower your own "killvalue" even if the rest of your modules are proto level, because those low tech level pieces of equipment lowers the tech level average of the entire fit.
Or did you mean getting additional points for each module, weapon and equipment in a kill? |
Mechoj Nomreps
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
146
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 15:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:Shadow Archeus wrote:Easy way to do this is have base kill worth 20 wp then have a bonus based on the total meta level of all gear on a suit
So killing militia suits is worth less......I might be in favor of 20 wp plus 1 wp for each meta level......
Makes hunting proto suits much more profitable and makes might help balance wp issues Hmm, but wouldn't it be possible to mess around with a formula like that? Take a logi suit for instance, by filling your equipment slots with militia equipment you could artificially lower your own "killvalue" even if the rest of your modules are proto level, because those low tech level pieces of equipment lowers the tech level average of the entire fit. Or did you mean getting additional points for each module, weapon and equipment in a kill?
I like the idea, just exclude the equipment slots I guess. |
Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
1427
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 16:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just have it that when proto weapons hit mitia gear they just turn into hearts. After too much of that, a auto message is sent to other team stating "The reason we proto stomped this game is cause we love you"
That will the stop the stomps.
They can also have another version where tanks can't kill infantry and infantry can't kill tanks. only tanks can kill each other.
** |
Leonid Tybalt
DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 16:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:This is a copy of a post I made yestoday.
We all know about the vet proto stumping and risk vs reward problems but we also want to feel like gods in proto gear and kill newbees and also as a neewbee we want to get the OHH YEAH feeling of taking down a proto vet. We want players to be able to do it all and use it all and go where ever they want to be. The New Eden way=ƒÿÄ
This is some ideas i have been thinking about.
In Eve online we already have security zones, high, low and nul sec. Why not use them in Dust ?
High sec is where you start as a neewb, but you can still go there as an adv or pro vet but as a adv or pro vet in high sec battles you get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK. For all the things you do, pro vets would get a high penalty, advs a lower one, newbs would get the usual WP/SP for killing other newbs and get a bonus for killing adv and a bigger bonus for pros when they kill them. In high sec it all should be at a normal rate from somewhere between 0-10 mill. SP. All above 10 mill. SP. gets a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Low sec is where you want to go as soon as get to use advanced gear and weapons or from 10-20 mill. SP. If you want normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards even for killing a newb who is trying his/her luck or if you as a newb want a bonus for killing, but if you have more then 20 mill. SP. You still get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Nul sec is where the pro vets from 20 mill. SP. Want to be if they want a normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards but newbs and advs can still go there if they want to try there luck and get some bonuses for killing.
A newb should get 25% bonus for an adv kill and 50% for a pro kill no matter where the battle is.
An adv should get 25% bonus for a pro kill no matter where the battle is and a 25% penalty for a newb kill but only if the battle is in a high sec zone, if it's in low/nul sec it's still at a normal rate.
Pros should get a 25% penalty for an adv kill and 50% penalty for a newb kill if the battle is in a high or low sec zone, but still get the normal rate if the battle is in a nul sec zone.
PC and FW battles should ALL count as nul sec battles.
This way we can all still do what ever we want to do but there will be a bonus or a penalty a RISK VS. REWARD.
In Eve online i have noticed that there are NPC caravans flying around why not make more of them with different LVL's of protection and use them as a way of transport that a merc can hire to fly him/her to the place they want to go and get the materials we would need to craft BPO/BPC items, use the marked etc. They could even be used in a way where Eve pilots can still attack them and we as merc infantry and merc pilots could control cannons, missile launchers,drones etc. Onboard the NPC caravan.
WE NEED PVE TO.
I think you would be forced to revise the lore if you did that though. The lore states that combat in dust is possible due to a cybernetic implant that allows an instant transfer of consciousness even at the moment of death. In essence, Mercs in dust are "jump cloning" constantly.
Suddenly being forced to "travel" to warzones via NPC ship caravans, while we previously just transfered our consciousness to a clone on the battlezone where the mission is taking place would sort of go against the lore as written.
I also feel that worrying about security rating is a problem for eve pilots and not something dust mercs should need to care about. It's the job of the eve pilots to deliver the clone packs, us mercs just "man" the clones.
That said, there are ways for PVE in dust. In fact, ccp even seems to have the idea sketched down because the intro movie mentions hunting rogue drone infestations (there's even sections in the movie where drones are shown) so some PVE-elements seems to have been planned at least.
But there are more ways to implement PVE elements in dust. On the top of my head I'd like to see assassination missions that NPC corps issue against NPCs of rival NPC corps (I.e go to space station x, fight your way through automated security systems and guards of target y, then kill target y).
Another thing I'd really like to see in dust are boarding actions in space battles. (this could be implemented both in PvP and PvE)
Imagine being shot out of a friendly ships torpedo-tube in a boarding torpedo, flying towards an enemy ship and smashing through it's hull while explosive bolts blow away the nose of the torpedo unloading a squad of Dust clones with a mission to plant remote explosives on vital internal components of the enemy vessel (shield emitter arrays, plasma reactor, perhaps even to assasinate the helpless pilot in his pod!), but of course being opposed by the ships internal security systems (or in bigger vessels: security personel)
Imagine all this happening in real time, where eve pilots can witness how suddenly the shields of a Carrier or Titan just drops or a huge chunk of their armor drops or the ship suddenly stops firing and is listed as "pilotless" because a few brave dust clones fought their way to the bridge and put a bullet in the head of the pilot, in mere minutes fought their way to the objective in a ship and managed to destroy it.
These are things I'd like to see aside from ground combat (both for PvE and PvP purposes) |
Leonid Tybalt
DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 17:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
But of course this thread isn't really about possible PvE, but about reducing proto-stomping. S+Ñ let's get back to topic. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfect Bastards
1810
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 17:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
No.
Tiericide of gear is the answer.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
|
Leonid Tybalt
DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 17:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:No.
Tiericide of gear is the answer.
Huh? |
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m twiggz
Pradox One Proficiency V.
192
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 17:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's not a terrible idea, at least it's constructive. I'd still rather see matches made on a meta level base.
ie; Basic vs Basic (only basic suits, weapons, modules, equipment and vehicles allowed to be used, all other fitting would be 'red') Advanced vs Advanced (anything advanced level, including level 4 advanced, and below can be used) Proto vs Proto (anything proto level or below can be used)
This way new players can play against other new players or against older players who just want to run lower tiered gear. Then of course the 'Proto vs Proto' tier would be how match making is now, any gear goes, you can enter with just basic gear if you want but at your own risk.
This way it would still keep the sandbox of Dust alive but give new players a chance to learn the game other than exploring their own redline.
|
Bones McGavins
TacoCat Industries
402
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 17:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
I really like the idea of WP adjustment based on meta level. Minimum adjustment should be 50 for an even match, 60 for 1 tier above, 75 for 2 tiers above, 100 for 3 tiers. 40 for 1 tier below, 30 for 2 tiers below 20 for 3 tiers below.
I could even see it being double the difference. So 70 for +1,90 for +2 and 150 for +3.
A militia killing a proto should be similar to killing a tank.
Even if you simply just do it for the suit itself and not worry about equipment, it would be a huge help. Yes, a player can put proto gear on advanced suit, but not without sacrificing another slot. The tier of the suit itself really would do a good enough job of dtermining level.
The alternative, simple method, would be to not worry about tier difference, and instead just award based on opponent, ignoring your own.
So militia is 30, std is 50, advanced 75, proto 100.
This probably is the least explotable. Otherwise you could have squads running militia to simply increase their WP to increase orbitals. |
Namirial Kensai
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 18:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
hwo about just make sure using protos is UNPROFITABLE
militia is pure profit, standard is a sligth cost into profit, advanced may as well break even with slight rpofit, proto COSTS money
proto should be used exclusively in FW and PC for when victory matters more than making money, if you want to make money, you should have a harder time doing it, so you shoudl use something that WONT ROFL-stomp everyone. if you just want to win adn nothign else, then USE proto, but at a cost. |
PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
114
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 04:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:This is a copy of a post I made yestoday.
We all know about the vet proto stumping and risk vs reward problems but we also want to feel like gods in proto gear and kill newbees and also as a neewbee we want to get the OHH YEAH feeling of taking down a proto vet. We want players to be able to do it all and use it all and go where ever they want to be. The New Eden way=ƒÿÄ
This is some ideas i have been thinking about.
In Eve online we already have security zones, high, low and nul sec. Why not use them in Dust ?
High sec is where you start as a neewb, but you can still go there as an adv or pro vet but as a adv or pro vet in high sec battles you get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK. For all the things you do, pro vets would get a high penalty, advs a lower one, newbs would get the usual WP/SP for killing other newbs and get a bonus for killing adv and a bigger bonus for pros when they kill them. In high sec it all should be at a normal rate from somewhere between 0-10 mill. SP. All above 10 mill. SP. gets a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Low sec is where you want to go as soon as get to use advanced gear and weapons or from 10-20 mill. SP. If you want normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards even for killing a newb who is trying his/her luck or if you as a newb want a bonus for killing, but if you have more then 20 mill. SP. You still get a penalty in WP/SP and ISK rewards.
Nul sec is where the pro vets from 20 mill. SP. Want to be if they want a normal rate of WP/SP and ISK rewards but newbs and advs can still go there if they want to try there luck and get some bonuses for killing.
A newb should get 25% bonus for an adv kill and 50% for a pro kill no matter where the battle is.
An adv should get 25% bonus for a pro kill no matter where the battle is and a 25% penalty for a newb kill but only if the battle is in a high sec zone, if it's in low/nul sec it's still at a normal rate.
Pros should get a 25% penalty for an adv kill and 50% penalty for a newb kill if the battle is in a high or low sec zone, but still get the normal rate if the battle is in a nul sec zone.
PC and FW battles should ALL count as nul sec battles.
This way we can all still do what ever we want to do but there will be a bonus or a penalty a RISK VS. REWARD.
In Eve online i have noticed that there are NPC caravans flying around why not make more of them with different LVL's of protection and use them as a way of transport that a merc can hire to fly him/her to the place they want to go and get the materials we would need to craft BPO/BPC items, use the marked etc. They could even be used in a way where Eve pilots can still attack them and we as merc infantry and merc pilots could control cannons, missile launchers,drones etc. Onboard the NPC caravan.
WE NEED PVE TO. I think you would be forced to revise the lore if you did that though. The lore states that combat in dust is possible due to a cybernetic implant that allows an instant transfer of consciousness even at the moment of death. In essence, Mercs in dust are "jump cloning" constantly. Suddenly being forced to "travel" to warzones via NPC ship caravans, while we previously just transfered our consciousness to a clone on the battlezone where the mission is taking place would sort of go against the lore as written. I also feel that worrying about security rating is a problem for eve pilots and not something dust mercs should need to care about. It's the job of the eve pilots to deliver the clone packs, us mercs just "man" the clones. That said, there are ways for PVE in dust. In fact, ccp even seems to have the idea sketched down because the intro movie mentions hunting rogue drone infestations (there's even sections in the movie where drones are shown) so some PVE-elements seems to have been planned at least. But there are more ways to implement PVE elements in dust. On the top of my head I'd like to see assassination missions that NPC corps issue against NPCs of rival NPC corps (I.e go to space station x, fight your way through automated security systems and guards of target y, then kill target y). Another thing I'd really like to see in dust are boarding actions in space battles. (this could be implemented both in PvP and PvE) Imagine being shot out of a friendly ships torpedo-tube in a boarding torpedo, flying towards an enemy ship and smashing through it's hull while explosive bolts blow away the nose of the torpedo unloading a squad of Dust clones with a mission to plant remote explosives on vital internal components of the enemy vessel (shield emitter arrays, plasma reactor, perhaps even to assasinate the helpless pilot in his pod!), but of course being opposed by the ships internal security systems (or in bigger vessels: security personel) Imagine all this happening in real time, where eve pilots can witness how suddenly the shields of a Carrier or Titan just drops or a huge chunk of their armor drops or the ship suddenly stops firing and is listed as "pilotless" because a few brave dust clones fought their way to the bridge and put a bullet in the head of the pilot, in mere minutes fought their way to the objective in a ship and managed to destroy it. These are things I'd like to see aside from ground combat (both for PvE and PvP purposes)
Sure we should jump clone in to battles like we always did, I want to use the caravans to travel for business purpurses like I said crafting in stations, buying materials etc. A merc being able to board a spaceship and kill pilot is a VERY BAD idea unless it's PVE. If cheap Dust merc clones starts pod killing Eve online VERY expensive clones and take there just as expensive ships It will kill Eve. Some ships cots bills of isk and most players have at least spend 100 mill isk in implants, a lot of players spend a lot more, on top of that cake there is the price of a new clone |
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