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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn
1339
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Posted - 2013.12.23 01:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
We know it depends on equipments spam, we know people abuse it, we know people do it in pubs for the giggles. Equipments are broken, and make game experience much worse, it's game breaking, much more than an OP suit or weapon. Yes, I know it's a known issue (oh, well at least I hope it is...) but what are you waiting to fix it?
There may be a temporary measure like limiting the total equipments per team, or per player; just do something. Please.
Tank 514.
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender Public Disorder.
65
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Posted - 2013.12.23 02:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've seen my own team do this a few times. Putting down about 28 hives around a supply points or even our default spawn point. I wish I could shoot some of those myself...
However, I'm not certain a team limit would help. As a logisis who's whole role is support, I see this really hurting that role. A player limit might be worth looking into though.
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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kickin six
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2013.12.23 02:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think I was in that match earlier today, or one like it. Bunch of juveniles were spamming the default spawn point right next to the depot and throwing grenades at people as they landed. Maybe some way to vote them and their gear off the island. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3095
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Posted - 2013.12.23 03:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Having clusters of hives in some spots is useful. For instance if you put some links on a roof, and you're raining terror from there. Keeping the contingent from your team both supplied, repped, and having at least a couple spawn points up there is useful.
Having a few around a supply depot is also useful for similar reasons strategy-wise. People defending the position can get reps from hives and spawn back at the point to defend it. This is true of any position really, a little bit of equipment spam from logis in various places isn't uncommon.
I recall devs stating that part of the issue involved here is that's active scanning gels poorly with equipment spam, and that can/might cause the lag/frame-rate issues... presumably because you get multiple players making requests for "present location of blank" to the server when there are many many things to send data back on, and combinations of that with the rendering issues of massive quantities of items causes the game-engine to explode.
Presently, a single logi can pack 3-4 slots of a fitting with a different type nanohive in each, and spam that on top of a building... or wherever. They can do the same with links, proxies, etc. A supply depot becomes a center of these shenanigans because it lets them switch fittings quickly. A particularly lazy logi can do it right there quickly without going anywhere, which is why it gets centered around those areas. Even if it weren't "strategically" useful to have hives/links in that area, it would still be useful to a logi (or person possessing those suits) because they can drop equipment and then switch to another fit to collect WP without actively doing anything after the fact.
The fact that spam causes lag is just gravy for the people that are into that.
Any solution has to adjust to the fact that being able to have multiple equipment/items out from a single character that persist after you die is built-in to the strategy and gameplay of Dust. Many of us have probably been in a pub game before where one team seems to have literally ZERO hives/links out during the whole match. On the other hand, a single logi character with link-centric fits and hive centric fits can cover a map in useful droplinks and probably hive-spam up a depot area. Perhaps that's part of what they mean when they call a Logi player a "force-multiplier". The problems come up more with the experienced teams/corp squads that have multiple logis covering the maps.
Restricting the equipment a single logi can put out needs to take that into consideration. Consider the fact that "slayer" logis are considered bad in that people think they go against the intent of the character. If they nerf logistics combat-power AND restrict the amount of equipment they can put out, you wind up with a pretty serious nerf to the class. Current TTK means repping isn't the most viable practice either.
Some equipment types just aren't very useful when you can only drop a single variation as well. Consider proximity mines. Great for "possibly" blowing up a vehicle... if they happen to drive right over where you left them... AND you happen to have dropped a full set (you need hives/depot to actually even put out a full complement of a single tier of mines) AND you bothered to drop more than one tier. Three proxies of a single flavor are unlikely to kill anything but the most injured tank. So, successful Proxy strategy seems to hinge on people doing a little bit of spamming and hoping that they get enough in one place and that the vehicle actually trips all the mines. I'm not saying they couldn't fix this somehow, but the current use of the item seems predicated on using it in a certain way. Probably so a single character with a single equipment slot can't easily dispatch any vehicle at a choke point.
Persistent equipment and the amount of stuff a single character can put out is built-into the way the game works, and has been for awhile now. The effect and usage of equipment may need to be examined globally if any fix aims to curtail that dynamic. I can see the lag being bad of course, and I know about the would-be "slayer-logi" adjustments too. It's possible that early game balance design wasn't thinking about a logi laying out equipment, then switching to a proto-assault to have the best of both worlds (as many older characters can easily do).
One possible solution might tie the effect and usefulness of equipment both to the skills of a logi and what they currently have equipped. For instance, let's say all hives/links/etc. suddenly got a huge nerf in effects. Logis then had their bonuses replaced with effect bonuses for equipment (amount of nanites in hives, repair amount) such that the hives didn't really last when assaults used them. The catch is the effect would be tied both to the level of the logi (skills) and to what they currently have equipped. So, to get the bonus to hives, the hive-type would have to be currently equipped to that logi. So, if they try to equip something else to spam that.. their hives suddenly become ******. Same thing if they switch to assault. That alone wouldn't fix things, but it would reduce the benefit of switching a lot to put out tons of different kinds of equipment while keeping it persistent.
Join my cult.
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn
1340
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Posted - 2013.12.23 10:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Having clusters of hives in some spots is useful. For instance if you put some links on a roof, and you're raining terror from there. Keeping the contingent from your team both supplied, repped, and having at least a couple spawn points up there is useful.
Having a few around a supply depot is also useful for similar reasons strategy-wise. People defending the position can get reps from hives and spawn back at the point to defend it. This is true of any position really, a little bit of equipment spam from logis in various places isn't uncommon. [...] Presently, a single logi can pack 3-4 slots of a fitting with a different type nanohive in each, and spam that on top of a building... or wherever. They can do the same with links, proxies, etc. A supply depot becomes a center of these shenanigans because it lets them switch fittings quickly. A particularly lazy logi can do it right there quickly without going anywhere, which is why it gets centered around those areas. Even if it weren't "strategically" useful to have hives/links in that area, it would still be useful to a logi (or person possessing those suits) because they can drop equipment and then switch to another fit to collect WP without actively doing anything after the fact.
The fact that spam causes lag is just gravy for the people that are into that.
[...]
Consider the fact that "slayer" logis are considered bad in that people think they go against the intent of the character. If they nerf logistics combat-power AND restrict the amount of equipment they can put out, you wind up with a pretty serious nerf to the class. Current TTK means repping isn't the most viable practice either.
Persistent equipment and the amount of stuff a single character can put out is built-into the way the game works, and has been for awhile now. The effect and usage of equipment may need to be examined globally if any fix aims to curtail that dynamic. I can see the lag being bad of course, and I know about the would-be "slayer-logi" adjustments too. It's possible that early game balance design wasn't thinking about a logi laying out equipment, then switching to a proto-assault to have the best of both worlds (as many older characters can easily do).
I agree with you on certain points, but it wouldn't be a real "nerf". And here comes again the "skill" discussion: a skilled logi knows where to put hives / uplinks, there's absolutely no need to spam an entire zone with 8 of them. The issue is that:
- It's quite ridiculous that the squad that can deploy most uplinks / rep hives wins - It's ridiculous the amount of stuff a single logi can deploy: let's pretend I have 3 fittings, and they're filled with nanohives. Including Aur variants variants I can literally fill a socket with rep nanohives. Then, I'll just have to come back to the depot and repeat, doing the same thing with drop uplinks.
I do agree, there must be logis in a squad in order to let it win, but seriously the amount of skills (talking of both personal skills and SP) you need to do that is paltry. You talked about logis laying equipment and then switch to proto assault, and that's one of the issues imo. That's why in the OP I talked about a team hard cap: let's say 6 to 12 variants per team (taking into account the kind of equipment) ; when you reach that cap, you would still be able to deploy equipment, but the "older" equipment would be destroyed in the process.
A problem would absolutely be in "numbers". What would be the right cap for, let's say, nanohives both in order to let the game stay stable and to let logis stay useful? What about drop uplinks? It's quite a hard work, yes, but it must be done imo.
Tank 514.
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Meee One
Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day
36
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Posted - 2013.12.23 10:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
As a support logi,i would have no problem with radius,nanites,rate of repair/refill was skill based,but wouldn't uplinks and rep tools need to work the same way?(spawn time,limit)(range, hp/s rep) Why not just make all eq logi specific,including scanners and remotes. Of course there would be less efficient models,like the compact nano hive,that anyone could use;but higher tier eq should be logi only. But as soon as a player switches from logi class all deployed logi specific eq gets destroyed.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1820
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Posted - 2013.12.23 14:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
I love scanning and picking enemy equipment...
My framerate goes down to 1 and when it doesn't I can never actually tell where the enemy is.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Ivy Zalinto
Lo-Tech Solutions Ltd
203
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Posted - 2013.12.23 15:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
I dislike seeing large clusters of enemy equipment but then i carry flux grenades and their a good way to get points. If they could remove the hives animation and the uplinks animation in points of high server load it wouldn't be so bad I think
Dedicated scout.
New player tutor; scout instructor
Scrambler Pistol dedication
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
281
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Posted - 2013.12.23 19:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ivy Zalinto wrote:I dislike seeing large clusters of enemy equipment but then i carry flux grenades and they're a good way to get points. If they could remove the hives animation and the uplinks animation in points of high server load it wouldn't be so bad I think
Yes, I wish I could choose to not light up hives. Links I want to see, hives I have no use for when scanning.
Isn't the problem here the fact that you can build 2 identical suites, change from one to the other and redeploy the same set of equipment without the first set fizzing out? Or did they fix that yet?
Meaning at one point you could build two proto mini logis and name them imaduchespammer1 and imaduchespammer2, equip both suits with 1 alotec R, 1 k2 R, 1 alotec link and one alotec stable link. In suit 1 deploy all 8 pieces of equipment, then swap to suit 2 and deploy the same 8 pieces of equipment without the first set blinking out? Fix that problem and it may be a little more manageable.
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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Dustbunny Durrr
ReD or DeaD
13
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Posted - 2013.12.23 22:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
lee corwood wrote:I've seen my own team do this a few times. Putting down about 28 hives around a supply points or even our default spawn point. I wish I could shoot some of those myself...
However, I'm not certain a team limit would help. As a logisis who's whole role is support, I see this really hurting that role. A player limit might be worth looking into though.
+1 to player limit (as long as it is reasonable). |
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender Public Disorder.
74
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Posted - 2013.12.24 08:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote: [.....]
Rho, as a 100% Logisis, I agree with a lot f your points, and I don't believe the limitations that are needed would ruin the logi build. I think every good logi knows there are some spammers that just reach the level of ridiculousness that make us angry and ashamed of said logis. I might need 4 hives. 6 is pushing it, but at strategic locations, I can see it for a large skirmish match. But 10-20 for a single player is just foolish. Especially when placed at the default spawn points that have a freaking supply point. I jumped into a squad where one guy wasted 15 mins showing his buddies how much he could lay down under the MCC. Then another 10 trying to get us to stand on top of his tank so we could "ride it in".
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: I agree with you on certain points, but it wouldn't be a real "nerf". And here comes again the "skill" discussion: a skilled logi knows where to put hives / uplinks, there's absolutely no need to spam an entire zone with 8 of them. The issue is that:
- It's quite ridiculous that the squad that can deploy most uplinks / rep hives wins
I disagree with this point entirely (if used correctly and not as a lag tool alone). Getting a team into an area fast and well supplied is how all battles are won. Some of my most fun games have been logi wars where uplinks had us neck and neck against each other to keep an objective. If one team is putting out uplinks and the other is not, that is a flaw with their own support. However, if a smart team even carries the cheapest 1 active uplink among 8 players, that is just smart invasion. Imho.
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
221
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Posted - 2013.12.24 09:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:We know it depends on equipments spam, we know people abuse it, we know people do it in pubs for the giggles. Equipments are broken, and make game experience much worse, it's game breaking, much more than an OP suit or weapon. Yes, I know it's a known issue (oh, well at least I hope it is...) but what are you waiting to fix it?
There may be a temporary measure like limiting the total equipments per team, or per player; just do something. Please.
It will kill the logistics dropsuits and makes the assault the same role than thel ogistics.
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn
1351
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Posted - 2013.12.24 09:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:We know it depends on equipments spam, we know people abuse it, we know people do it in pubs for the giggles. Equipments are broken, and make game experience much worse, it's game breaking, much more than an OP suit or weapon. Yes, I know it's a known issue (oh, well at least I hope it is...) but what are you waiting to fix it?
There may be a temporary measure like limiting the total equipments per team, or per player; just do something. Please. It will kill the logistics dropsuits and makes the assault the same role than thel ogistics.
Why? You would never be able to put 2 uplinks 2 nanohives and an active scanner on an assault drop suit.
Logistics still do a better job than assault almost everytime. The famous "combat logi" should be able to defend himself, but shouldn't be able to "slay".
lee corwood wrote:Getting a team into an area fast and well supplied is how all battles are won.
yes, and that's good. The problem is the spam. Spamming 3 rep hives on a certain point for, let's say, 10 logis it's 30 rep hives. 10 rep hives each letter will make you win, every time. It's more or less +200 armor each second.
What's the problem then in letting people place only 3 hives?
Tank 514.
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.24 16:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
I, personally have never seen a game with that many logis. More than likely in that scenario, assaults were bringing their own hives to the party too. I think it would be easier for that specific issue to be resolved by either:
- Laying down a hive's success depends on how many are within proximity (which, I cringe at suggesting for the developers sake as I know that is some complicated math ...)
- capping the amount a group of hives can heal.
One flux grenade would solve the issue today, but someone extra good at strafing that stays in the healing bubble could withstand a lot. Hives shouldn't heal more than the best rep tool per second.
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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