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Xaviah Reaper
Nyain San Renegade Alliance
212
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Posted - 2013.12.22 18:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
I personally feel that the burst and breach AR has no real attraction and therefore its use will die out. In order to keep these rifles ( as well as any other rifle that seems to be under used) attractive and viable, we need to tweak the rifles to make all of them as deadly as the other. Otherwise, dust514 will turn into combat rifle 514, or rail rifle 514, or so on.
I think a good way to make the rifles more attractive is to a) change what the rifle looks like b) change the sound effect for the rifle c) buff the weapon over all in some way d) release other race variants of the rifle
any other opinions / suggestions?
Best game with a Python:
33kills 1 death (1.6)
24kills 1 death (1.7)
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
548
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
I see where you are coming from but disagree.
Let's assume you have all possible racial variants in across the board for rifles...so 16 rifles (4 races and 4 categories). By design as stated but he Devs each race has a preferred or "base" category. The basic idea is that a given given races base weapon out performs other races spin on the variant BUT they all need to be at least competitive (but not equal) in effectiveness.
Caldari basic category is Breach (low ROF, good damage, high accuracy, long range) other races breach variants will underperform when directly compared to the rail rifle. That doesn't mean they aren't viable; I've got some buddies that us the Gallente burst variant to great effect and they've stuck with it even with the combat rifle out.
In response to your direct recommendations: A) you can change the looks but why? Not opposed to it but seems like an inefficient use of development assets B) not a bad idea. I like being able to identify weapons by sound and visual signature (color and type of tracers) C) this is really where we part ways...see reasons in paragraph above. D) 100% on board with you as long as they adhere to the racial playstyle rubric. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7584
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:I see where you are coming from but disagree.
Let's assume you have all possible racial variants in across the board for rifles...so 16 rifles (4 races and 4 categories). By design as stated but he Devs each race has a preferred or "base" category. The basic idea is that a given given races base weapon out performs other races spin on the variant BUT they all need to be at least competitive (but not equal) in effectiveness.
Caldari basic category is Breach (low ROF, good damage, high accuracy, long range) other races breach variants will underperform when directly compared to the rail rifle. That doesn't mean they aren't viable; I've got some buddies that us the Gallente burst variant to great effect and they've stuck with it even with the combat rifle out.
In response to your direct recommendations: A) you can change the looks but why? Not opposed to it but seems like an inefficient use of development assets B) not a bad idea. I like being able to identify weapons by sound and visual signature (color and type of tracers) C) this is really where we part ways...see reasons in paragraph above. D) 100% on board with you as long as they adhere to the racial playstyle rubric. The other races copycat variants don't have to underperform compared to the "original", they can just be different. Example; since the Gallente AR breach is plasma-based compared to the Caldari rail rifle (the "original"), it should have less range, but perhaps higher rate of fire. A bigger magazine would also be nice.
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots Templis De Novo
28
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
The variants wont compete or shouldnt necessarily with the original type. A breach AR is still an AR with its base stats just changed slightly to act like a rail rifle.
I assume the breach ar still puts out more dps than the RR, has less range and is less accurate.
As far as changing stats go, I would say no. I dont know of any balance issues that are terribly wrong.
As far as looks and all the effects, I would love it. Theres 4 rifles and all the variants look fairly similar. The A RR has no scope.. the breach and tac ar should have a scope.. maybe.
I guess its just a vanity/aesthetic thing but I would like the variety.
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Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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Xaviah Reaper
Nyain San Renegade Alliance
212
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Posted - 2013.12.23 02:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:I see where you are coming from but disagree.
Let's assume you have all possible racial variants in across the board for rifles...so 16 rifles (4 races and 4 categories). By design as stated but he Devs each race has a preferred or "base" category. The basic idea is that a given given races base weapon out performs other races spin on the variant BUT they all need to be at least competitive (but not equal) in effectiveness.
Caldari basic category is Breach (low ROF, good damage, high accuracy, long range) other races breach variants will underperform when directly compared to the rail rifle. That doesn't mean they aren't viable; I've got some buddies that us the Gallente burst variant to great effect and they've stuck with it even with the combat rifle out.
I agree with your points, however I still feel the burst is under performing versus the KRR. It has to have some sort of benefit over the RR or else I dont see the viability.
Best game with a Python:
33kills 1 death (1.6)
24kills 1 death (1.7)
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Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
2434
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Posted - 2013.12.23 03:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xaviah Reaper wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:I see where you are coming from but disagree.
Let's assume you have all possible racial variants in across the board for rifles...so 16 rifles (4 races and 4 categories). By design as stated but he Devs each race has a preferred or "base" category. The basic idea is that a given given races base weapon out performs other races spin on the variant BUT they all need to be at least competitive (but not equal) in effectiveness.
Caldari basic category is Breach (low ROF, good damage, high accuracy, long range) other races breach variants will underperform when directly compared to the rail rifle. That doesn't mean they aren't viable; I've got some buddies that us the Gallente burst variant to great effect and they've stuck with it even with the combat rifle out.
I agree with your points, however I still feel the burst is under performing versus the KRR. It has to have some sort of benefit over the RR or else I dont see the viability. I can completely relate to this discussion. I was a Breach AR fanatic, I loved the thing. However the arrival of the Rail Rifle occurred and I figured I should give it a whirl since I understood they were "related". I felt like the Rail Rifle put the breach assault rifle in the mud; it had twice the range, faster RoF, and higher damage. It was as lethal up close as it was long range. So I was kinda upset with that, can't be killin' my Breach now.
But then I just decided to return to my Breach because it certainly has a different feel. I started performing better with my breach and I was definitely killing up some Shield tankers and some Amarr suits. I felt like the Breach (and Burst maybe not Tactical) has more bang for its buck. As long as you play it's range properly, it is worth the cheaper CPU/PG. But again, the rail rifle does shame it when their paths cross.
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Lentarr Legionaire
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Dunce Masterson
Savage Bullet
8
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Posted - 2013.12.23 04:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like the way this game is set up with the infantry weapons the assault blaster is the best fast auto fire weapon the rail rifle is the best slow auto fire weapon the combat rifle is the best burst weapon and the scrambler rifle is the best single shot weapon.
now they all have other version but they are nto has good has the other in their first version thats balance if they all performed the same whats the point in specing into the others?
the only weapon not worth specing into the is the laser rifle. |
Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E
26
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Posted - 2013.12.23 08:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
I personally feel that each weapon and its variants should be tied into their racial creator, the problem is that CCP decided to "balance" these weapons as such we get these variants that should be dominating in there own way.
Example Pallete Caldari: Gauss (assault), Rail (marksman), Bolt (breach), Forge (Anti Matter). Each weapon should be classed/modified to meet specific roles and overall change the entire weapon system.
Example Pallete Caldari 2 Weapon variation name: Starting off with a weapon not yet within the game (or if it hasn't been removed from the drawing board) Gauss Rifle, high rate of fire low damage. Rail Gauss Rifle, marksman variant capable of hitting targets at greater distance, greater damage, requires charging, medium- high rate of fire. Bolt Gauss Rifle greastest damage extremely low rate of fire compared to standard and marksman variants.
Forge Cannon (Forge Gun), high damage anti material drilling armament, capable of medium-high damage to vehicles, low ammunition capacity, low rate of fire, requires charging. Rail Forge Cannon, semi-automatic, capable of medium damage to vehicles, slightly greater rate of fire. Gauss Forge Cannon, fully automatic variant, lacks damage, lacks range, greatest rate of fire of all variants, highst ammo capacity of all variants, capable of low damage to vehicles. Charged Forge Cannon, greatest damage of all variants, charging time required increased compared to standard variant, low rate of fire, capable of high damage to vehicles.
Kudos to all who read that, and yes i've put SIGNIFICANT thought into just what you possibly read/skimmed over, as shown above, each race should make variants based on their own race, not based on others. (As you clearly saw there is no burst model). Now practically your taking a standard weapon and remodelling it to fit an entirely different situation.
Each race has their own breach, their own marksman, their own anti material, and assault, but some unique races (like the minmatar) has unique variants, (that will obviously be allowed to gallente for various reasons) that allows them to be different and sometimes depending on the situation, better than their opposition. Doesn't fix TTK but you definitely bet that these weapons will do better than they have now.
Again thank you for reading my post (if you took the the time to read this) and let me know what you think? (description wise). Took me hours to complete this via Ps3.
G.R.A.V.E - Dead men tell no tale...
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Alam Storm
Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
38
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Posted - 2013.12.23 08:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
if they increased the rate of right just a lil bit people may start using it again |
The-Errorist
Closed For Business For All Mankind
417
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Posted - 2013.12.26 00:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zan Azikuchi wrote:I personally feel that each weapon and its variants should be tied into their racial creator, the problem is that CCP decided to "balance" these weapons as such we get these variants that should be dominating in there own way.
Example Pallete Caldari: Gauss (assault), Rail (marksman), Bolt (breach), Forge (Anti Matter). Each weapon should be classed/modified to meet specific roles and overall change the entire weapon system.
Example Pallete Caldari 2 Weapon variation name: Starting off with a weapon not yet within the game (or if it hasn't been removed from the drawing board) Gauss Rifle, high rate of fire low damage. Rail Gauss Rifle, marksman variant capable of hitting targets at greater distance, greater damage, requires charging, medium- high rate of fire. Bolt Gauss Rifle greastest damage extremely low rate of fire compared to standard and marksman variants.
Forge Cannon (Forge Gun), high damage anti material drilling armament, capable of medium-high damage to vehicles, low ammunition capacity, low rate of fire, requires charging. Rail Forge Cannon, semi-automatic, capable of medium damage to vehicles, slightly greater rate of fire. Gauss Forge Cannon, fully automatic variant, lacks damage, lacks range, greatest rate of fire of all variants, highst ammo capacity of all variants, capable of low damage to vehicles. Charged Forge Cannon, greatest damage of all variants, charging time required increased compared to standard variant, low rate of fire, capable of high damage to vehicles.
Kudos to all who read that, and yes i've put SIGNIFICANT thought into just what you possibly read/skimmed over, as shown above, each race should make variants based on their own race, not based on others. (As you clearly saw there is no burst model). Now practically your taking a standard weapon and remodelling it to fit an entirely different situation.
Each race has their own breach, their own marksman, their own anti material, and assault, but some unique races (like the minmatar) has unique variants, (that will obviously be allowed to gallente for various reasons) that allows them to be different and sometimes depending on the situation, better than their opposition. Doesn't fix TTK but you definitely bet that these weapons will do better than they have now.
There was ALOT more here but apparently my ps3 is ********, but from forge cannon part you guys get the jist.
Roles like AV and sniper rifle isn't all clear for all the races weapons and here's the breakdown of the weapon roles/archetypes:
Hybrid - Rail (Long range) All base variants should be breach Forgegun (Does NOT shoot anti-matter) Sniper Rifle Rail Rifle (Formerly known as the Gauss rifle) - Breach Magsec SMG Bolt Pistol (Formerly known as the Rail Pistol)
Laser (medium-long range) Base variants are maybe all tactical Scrambler Rifle - Tactical Heavy Weapon - TBA Laser Rifle Scrambler Pistol
Projectile (short-medium range) - All base variants should be burst Precision Rifle - Sniper Combat Rifle - Burst HMG SMG
Hybrid - Plasma (short-medium range) Base variants are maybe all assault Plasma Cannon Heavy Weapon - TBA Assault Rifle - Assault Shotgun Ion Pistol
Explosive Swarm Launcher Mass Driver Flaylock Pistol Remote Explosive
Also the names for the forgegun variants you gave pretty much all mean the same thing and the current variants so far already fit the established archetypes; tactical (base variant), assault, and breach, so another variant that could be added would be a burst. |
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
2944
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Posted - 2013.12.26 01:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Stephen Seneca wrote: I assume the breach ar still puts out more dps than the RR, has less range and is less accurate.
The Breach AR does not Out DPS the RR, even when you compare the standard RR to the Prototype BAR.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1426
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Posted - 2013.12.26 02:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xaviah Reaper wrote:I personally feel that the burst and breach AR has no real attraction and therefore its use will die out. In order to keep these rifles ( as well as any other rifle that seems to be under used) attractive and viable, we need to tweak the rifles to make all of them as deadly as the other. Otherwise, dust514 will turn into combat rifle 514, or rail rifle 514, or so on.
I think a good way to make the rifles more attractive is to a) change what the rifle looks like b) change the sound effect for the rifle c) buff the weapon over all in some way d) release other race variants of the rifle
any other opinions / suggestions?
Scale (tiered) the range of every rifle. Equalize the range and DPS across variants, give the original weapon a "leg up" on the variant. |
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