DUST Search - Why not just make passive scanning as strong as active?

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

Range Amplifiers and Profile Dampeners are low slots. Scout gk.0 has 4 lows, one high. I understand that a scout buff would be cool and all but it's unnecessary. The only thing a scout needs right now is a bigger draw, a game that supports the scout role. As of now, it's more novelty. They function just as they're supposed to but it's just lack of scout things to do.

Personally, I run this sort of setup as a scout:
- Enhanced Ferroscale plates or Basic Plates
- Complex Armor Reps
- Complex or Enhanced Range Amplifier
- More armor or more reps (depends on the mood)
- - Damage mod or Shield Extender (Complex)

Precision mods as I see them are not worth the time. The skill bonus is alright but the modules are crap. Every precision module offers less than its profile dampener cousin, and costs more. Profile will forever defeat precision modules. As a scout, I can already detect medium frames, even those that are dampened by 10%. I can detect fake scouts aka Light Frames as long as they don't have any dampening. Scout vs. Scout are some of the weirdest fights.

Also, shields are a thing of the past. I have an innate 87 shields on my scout. With one high slot, why bother with a shield extender? On the G/1 series it's a different story, that suit has 2 highs and 2 lows. Some people point to the proto scanner as the blame. If a G/1 series had 3 low slots, it could theoretically defeat a proto scanner.

Anyways, you are 100% correct in that this game needs to have a bigger draw towards more flavorful modules, more dynamic fittings. I'm surprised I don't hear of many Assault suits using kincats or stamimods. I've heard of stealth logis as well but really range is reserved for the scout and I can't see a way of making them applicable to medium frames.

Let's take the complex range amp and buff it up to 60% and see what it does:

Medium Frames: 10 meter
Level 5 Range: 15 meter
+ 60% Module: 24 meters
+ Second Module: 33 meters

Notice the stacking penalty and lack of difference the module makes on a medium frame.....ok onto scout

Scout: 16 meters
Level 5 G Scout: 24 meters
Level 5 Range: 36 Meters
+ 60% Module: 57.6 meters
+ Second Module: 80.2 meters

This is just a 15% buff to the complex. It makes little difference to a medium frame but a large gap for scouts. Medium frame can't even hit a level 5 G Scout's passive range with 2 complex modules.

How do you introduce buffs to these modules without buffing the G Scout?

Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard!


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Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 854	Posted - 2013.12.21 23:57:00 - [1] - Quote ((To be clear, this is referring to one module being as strong as the standard level counterpart active scanner, not the variants {lvl 1 mod= lvl 1 scanner, lvl 3 mod = lvl 3 scanner})) The scan radius of all the dropsuits in this game is so small that if you can shotgun them, they are within your radius. So upping the power of passive scanner modules would give you the ability to see people within that radius with one equipped unless they are dampened. The best part is, it only works for you. With active scanners you light up the whole other team like a christmas tree for your team to pounce on. With passive scans, you can scout locations and work your way around behind people. This would also make the range amplification modules important. Makes dampening more important, gives you a reason to use something other than damage mods or shields, adds more ewar elements to the game, allows people to scout for their team without the enemy knowing they are being scanned. Basically, this will encourage more diversity in both high and low slot fittings. You can HP tank, you can scan tank, you damage tank, you can speed tank, you can stealth tank, you can totally EWAR tank, or you can run some combination thereof. Right now the only truly viable classes are glass cannons, HP tanks and stealth tanks (and stealth tanks just barely...). It also may make active scanning slow down a little bit and cut back on lag (one guy scans the 18198398139193 pieces of equipment in a Dom or Skirm and that info has to be sent to everyone on the same team). Soo.... why not? You know, other than "But I might have to change the way I play because that other guy specced into something that prevents him from dealing & tanking more damage, but he can see me coming and I don't like using dampners!" Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 856	Posted - 2013.12.22 00:13:00 - [2] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: People would complain since scouts get the highest passive scanning and would be able to see further then anyone else. I can get around 45-48 meters with a enhanced and max skills, if I didn't need the limited low slots I would run 2 mods. Yes, and you are also in the weakest EHP suit in the game. Right now you can run a damage mod and a scanner and get the same effect, except you light up the enemy for EVERYONE and you are dealing extra damage with your weapon of choice. I'd personally rather have one guy know where I am and him have one less shield extender or damage mod equipped, than have the ENTIRE OTHER TEAM know where I am and them ALL be running extra shields and damage mods. Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 856	Posted - 2013.12.23 09:17:00 - [3] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Range Amplifiers are a scout module and really a potent one on the Gallente Scout. Here's some math from Haerr. Gallente Scout Base: 16 m +Suit L5: 24 m +Range L5: 36 m +1Complex: 52.2 m +2Complex: 72.62 m +3Complex: 91.26 m +4Complex: 102.88 m Basically you take this module any further you're going to end up with people like me being omniscient across the map. I get that everyone lags behind the G Scout when it comes to scanning but you're in a catch 22. Without the buff, the game goes on normal where passive scan appeals to only two suits in the game. With the buff you are looking at a G Scout epidemic. I frequently run a passive radius of about 43 meters and I receive a lot of information easily. I sneak right up to the front line, locate all enemies (unless there's a scout) in 40 meters, pop out an ambush, kill, hide, repeat. But I understand the desire for you to bring the scout world to the medium frames for some flavor. But you can't do this hitting the scout hive. You either take scouts to an OP level or you bring medium frames up but then scouts lose their advantage. For now I recommend speccing into Profile dampening. It's the single most applicable scout module to medium frames. Since when does a G-Scout have 4 high slots, let alone enough CPU to fit 4 complex range amps? I thought even the proto only had 2, but I could easily be mistaken. My internet went out moments after my last post, so I've not been on to check (my internet JUST NOW came back on). And even if you had that much fitting space, you would want to use at least 1 precision amp in order to counter people with damps on, plus giving up shields in a high slot means a lot to a scout who is already as squishy as they come. Basically, if you are going for an all scans scout and you have 4 highs to fit with scanning, you are looking at running basic weapons and equipment plus CPU upgrades in your lows, leaving you with a severe handicap on dampening and in direct firefights. Scouts would be actually be balanced if this buff were implemented BECAUSE they are supposed to be good with scans and dampening. Other suits could benefit from this too, but scouts would most of all due to their passive skills and native profiles. This would be a huge buff for scouts, making them finally the perfect EWAR class and at the same time let other people have a go at EWAR too. Might even convince some people to hang up their Gallogi/Callogi/Gassault/Cassault suits (you know, the ONLY SUITS YOU EVER SEE IN THE GAME pretty much) and run scout for a while. It would allow them to be more important to their squad and wouldn't require them to carry a scanner. And of course, Minassaults would love it too with their 5 high slots. Might actually give them something worth while to do with them since shields and damage mods are both hard to fit on it. Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 862	Posted - 2013.12.24 03:05:00 - [4] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Range Amplifiers and Profile Dampeners are low slots. Scout gk.0 has 4 lows, one high. I understand that a scout buff would be cool and all but it's unnecessary. The only thing a scout needs right now is a bigger draw, a game that supports the scout role. As of now, it's more novelty. They function just as they're supposed to but it's just lack of scout things to do. Personally, I run this sort of setup as a scout: - Enhanced Ferroscale plates or Basic Plates - Complex Armor Reps - Complex or Enhanced Range Amplifier - More armor or more reps (depends on the mood) - - Damage mod or Shield Extender (Complex) Precision mods as I see them are not worth the time. The skill bonus is alright but the modules are crap. Every precision module offers less than its profile dampener cousin, and costs more. Profile will forever defeat precision modules. As a scout, I can already detect medium frames, even those that are dampened by 10%. I can detect fake scouts aka Light Frames as long as they don't have any dampening. Scout vs. Scout are some of the weirdest fights. Also, shields are a thing of the past. I have an innate 87 shields on my scout. With one high slot, why bother with a shield extender? On the G/1 series it's a different story, that suit has 2 highs and 2 lows. Some people point to the proto scanner as the blame. If a G/1 series had 3 low slots, it could theoretically defeat a proto scanner. Anyways, you are 100% correct in that this game needs to have a bigger draw towards more flavorful modules, more dynamic fittings. I'm surprised I don't hear of many Assault suits using kincats or stamimods. I've heard of stealth logis as well but really range is reserved for the scout and I can't see a way of making them applicable to medium frames. Let's take the complex range amp and buff it up to 60% and see what it does: Medium Frames: 10 meter Level 5 Range: 15 meter + 60% Module: 24 meters + Second Module: 33 meters Notice the stacking penalty and lack of difference the module makes on a medium frame.....ok onto scout Scout: 16 meters Level 5 G Scout: 24 meters Level 5 Range: 36 Meters + 60% Module: 57.6 meters + Second Module: 80.2 meters This is just a 15% buff to the complex. It makes little difference to a medium frame but a large gap for scouts. Medium frame can't even hit a level 5 G Scout's passive range with 2 complex modules. How do you introduce buffs to these modules without buffing the G Scout? I'll answer that in a second, first: I do believe there is a misunderstanding here.... I was saying to buff the precision enhancers, not the range amps. You buff the precision enhancers and adjust the range amps to taste. I'm only trying to point out that if the power of precision amps were comparable (or even CLOSE to comparable) to active scanners, it would make them worth while. And I forgot that range was a low slot, but honestly I still feel that your example of 4 complex is a bit extreme. All speed, damps, reps and regulators gone and only 2 highs to squeeze a little health out of. Sure it would be cool if the other team is complete trash or if they are dumb enough not to run scanners, but one ADV scanner and you are toast. No amount or running helps with RR's about. (honestly any AR, but for some reason RR's feel far worse) I am still convinced that buffing the passive scans and tweaking the range amps would give scouts scout things to do. It would give them advantages in hacking, sneaking into enemy owned areas undetected, stealth surprise attacks, etc. Very "scouty". And if they are squad lead, they can even mark targets lol. "How do you introduce buffs to these modules without buffing the G Scout?" You are buffing every suit in the game, and putting the G Scout where it should be in the scans department.----------/Edit this allows all suits to have access to decent scanning while letting the G Scout stay ahead of the pack. Just an after thought after I finished typing. /Edit---------------- The G Scout is supposed to be the master of scans, this would make it so. Honestly the power of active scanners is too high, it really should be nerfed a bit before this is implimented..... but I'm too tired to deal with the exact numbers right now.... let's just say nerf the strength of all scanners by about 5-10%, make passive scans the same strength as actives, and tweak the range amps based off of performance and in game viability. IIRC everyone was going on and on about how UP the CR was going to be based on it's numbers, now you see the forums crying OP all over the place. The numbers aren't the whole picture. Since you have only 2 high slots, at most you will be able to fit 2 on a G Scout, but if you run 2 complex precision amps you are going to have trouble fitting 4 range amps (REALLY too tired to look THAT up and see). If you pull it off, you are left with all speed, damps, reps and regulators gone and no health apart from your base suit health. Sure it would be cool if the other team is complete trash or if they are dumb enough not to run scanners, but one ADV scanner and you are toast. It's a VERY expensive suit that can only scan enemies for YOU and awards you no points for those scans. That's REALLY risky for such a costly protosuit. Sorry about this hobbled together response, I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired, sinus medicine is kicking my ***. Headed to bed, night. o/ Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 875	Posted - 2013.12.26 06:45:00 - [5] - Quote bump Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero