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I hate to be so final but Rail Tanks are COMPLETELY BROKEN

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Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 987	Posted - 2013.12.21 03:25:00 - [1] - Quote I try not to damn certain game tactics or weapons as broken unless it is desperate. But rail gun tanks are just so completely broken it has me wondering if they were properly tested. They have Huge alpha, Huge Hp, Huge Range, Huge elevation and they can be immune in the redline. Not just in the redline but they can shoot an objective from 300m in the redline. This is monstrously stupid. I cannot move in any map, or any game mode without a rail tank or three that are up to 300 meters into the redline 1 or 2 shotting my dropship. It is absolutely broken. They are not in need of slight balance or tweaking but plain broken to the point that they should not be in the game with the maps that we have. I am making a video to make my point but at this stage CCP. They need to go. Now. Until they can be made to work with current map size and until you fix the broken and unbalanced redline they have to go. SImply remove the rail turret until we can make a weapon that overpowered work within the limits of fair balance, I only make threads like this if something is game breakingly bad. And I don't like to. But this is a special case. Did you know that at 250m from an objective, from a flat surface a rail tank can shoot a dropship 297 meters up?! Tanks rule the ground and the sky. So here it is CCP. Take out that turret. Now. Until we can balance it. Its unfair and it breaks air/ground balance. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 989	Posted - 2013.12.21 04:07:00 - [2] - Quote We do need rails. I am not for removing them forever. But the combination of range, Alpha and turret elevation combined with small maps and redline invunrability just equals broken. Imagine you play as a caldari AR user. But the map you play on has no cover anywhere near any of the objectives. Infact there is only 1 wall to hide behind and it is way over at the back of the map.. The map is all completely flat open ground, not a bump or a wall anywhere. On this map are 3 enemy snipers on a hill. This hill lets them see you at all times. This hill is also deep in the redline. So deep that no-one can get to them, even with a suicide run. Also on this map are other players in Amarr suits. You are the only Caldari player. But the snipers are not interested in the Amarr players. They are smaller and harder to see and have small walls that your caldari suit cannot hide behind. So the 3 snipers only have you to look for the entire match. These snipers can kill you in 2 shots, From 540 meters away and you have no cover and cannot move out of range as you are always in range. The playable area of the map is only 530 meters across. This is what it is like for dropship pilots at the moment. No cover, no warning, no chance. If you want to play you have to step into his sights. The only defence is to hope he misses. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1000	Posted - 2013.12.21 13:25:00 - [3] - Quote I'll restress that it is the redline and the power against dropships that is the main issue. While we need weapons to fight strong tanks these weapons should not be able to dominate the sky. Thats where dropships are supposed to rule. The buildings and inner spaces belong to the infantry. The open spaces are ruled by the tanks. The sky should belong to aerial craft, but it doesn't. Tanks are king there. We do not need, in this build with these maps a vehicle that can shoot all the way across the map and into the sky. To have a fight you and your opponent should both know that you are in that fight. 500m kills from 100 meters into the redline are not fair fights. It's simply handing kils to one player and taking ISK from another. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1023	Posted - 2013.12.21 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: You know this thread is just full of people that are complaining about anyone and anything that kills them. You will die. Adapt. My goodness. You have an opinion. And that is grand. Thanks. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1023	Posted - 2013.12.21 22:22:00 - [5] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I'm at my whits end right now. I'm so happy I'm getting some new games for christmas, I need a break from this ****. I only enjoy flying now, and red line railguns just make it to too stressful and not enjoyable at all. Even if you jump through the crazy amount of hoops required to kill them, they just call in another because you can afford 3-4 damage stacked sica's per match before losing ISK. Is it so much to ask for them to risk their ISK like I have to? If all else fails, you can recall three times over in the time it would take the dropship to kill your tank. . I understand the feeling mate. Please come back. Even if it's in a months time. We need experiance pilots like you to make it better for pilots in the future. Imagine if no-one tried to make things better, to stand up for the new guys or those that can't get heard. Hope to see you (although we have never ended up in a game together - on now btw) when you have had your rest. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1035	Posted - 2013.12.22 02:49:00 - [6] - Quote CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: i do agree railguns are insane - but why expend so much energy balancing when CCP could be creating more content Because many people are finding their enjoyment of the game ruined by an unfair game mechanic. You may want to dismiss unfair things that cause people to feel badly treated, but i won't. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1042	Posted - 2013.12.22 10:46:00 - [7] - Quote I have a video on the way about this as I mentioned. It will address many of the comments here and also show you things that the damage numbers and range numbers cannot. It have been stated several times, and then refuted but then stated again that dropships want rails weakend to the point where dropships become OP. We keep saying that is not the case but many ignore us (or didn't read the whole thread - can't blame them for that as it's a long one) Any player who can kill and cost another player ISK should be on the battlefield taking the same risks. The redline combined with the rail stops this balance. At the same time VS dropships the rail tank can cover my entire playzone where I have no cover. he is not stopping me dropping troops, hovering with a CRU or shooting rooftop uplinks by using his wits and teamplay to out think and out position me. He simply sits on a hill in complete safety and shoots me twice in 1.2 seconds. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1047	Posted - 2013.12.22 13:43:00 - [8] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: So here is what I think an Assault Dropship is for, During Combat it is Highly likely to require troops to be dropped into a contested zone, often in to areas with little cover, its here the assault dropship is useful, available to provide covering fire while troops find a safe location, the assault dropship isn't made for marathons of combat, instead often relying on gunship or fighter escort to successfully transport its cargo. Does that sound right? Is that how they should be / are being used? below are 3 uses of a assault dropship that are not Gunship type roles. These are ones I do use, but only in a squad. 1) I use an Incubus often with a CRU fitted. I dont need many seats as the players pop in and leave when near a good spot. The speed allows me to keep moving, covering the map quickly to deliver the spawned troops. The front gun I use to clear enemy uplinks and nanos so I can also land and replace their uplinks with mine. I don't go for kills but for equipment. This is where a gun on a ship is useful. I can play the role of putting my team where needed and slowing the enemies supply line of troops and equipment. So not a pure logi role or a full on assault role. It is a build only the ADS can get as dropships are today. The limit in seats gives it a strategic insertion and disruption role. 2) Another build I use is a rail (i have proto) fitted assault dropship. I use this to not kill tanks but to 'Force' them. So when I play with a good tanker, like DELBOY, I chase a tank toward him and use my turret to get the enemy tank to activate his hardeners. By the time he runs into DELBOY his hardeners are on cooldown or have a short run left. If I can I do this with a forge gunner or 2 in the ship with me .Get a tank to harden up. Chase it till they run down then drop the forge gunners on them. 3) If the enemy is on a roof or holding an outpost I use an assault dropship to take a knifer or remote explosive player or scout behind them. Stefan the almighty is my goto guy for this. I can drop him, often right behind them (like the mushroom roof) that has a wall across the middle so the enemy cannot see me drop him) then I go and hover right infront of them and shoot to get their attention. While they arre look at me they get murdered from behind. The front gun allows me to do these roles. But I am not playing as a mini gunship as these tasks use passengers as part of the tactics. This is the role between Dropship and Gunship assault version can fill. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1052	Posted - 2013.12.22 19:42:00 - [9] - Quote Let's say you cannot shoot into or out of a redline. We need to stop peepers. So once you leave you cannot return for 4 minutes. That's plenty of time that you won't use all your ammo. However. Some map redesign I think will be needed, Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1052	Posted - 2013.12.22 19:57:00 - [10] - Quote The thing you must remember when saying that pilots escape, or seem to win is that you are not them. You see that one fight. I fly a lot. I know many who do, and I play with many of the best pilots this game has to offer. They die to AV. I die to AV. You may not see it but play 20 dropship matches as if you want to win and you will see deaths from swarms and forges. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1094	Posted - 2013.12.28 11:05:00 - [11] - Quote I think you might need to see the Issue from my perspective Quill. Hence (delayed by that christian holiday)my upcoming video. The tank itself is a problem and the reline the main cause. THe redline is an issue for snipers too, but in this case the tanks ability is heightened by the redline. It still has issues not related or governed by the redline. Chiefly elevation. As regards fitting and movement. Map design is such that the rail tank can cover huge parts of the map including often every objective (airspace we are talking about here) from great distance. The issue this causes is that they can hit a dropship almost anywhere. This negates the design decision of active modules giving us a strong attack window. Dropships have no attack window. We can be hit so easily from so far that we have few retreat options. Afterburners are not the solution. A variety of fits should be available and viable, scanners, CRUs etc. Forcing me to use a certain tactic because of a broken game element is a poor fix. not a proper solution. Also you are right about me being a somewhat poor example. I am a well known and prized trophy. SO I seem to bring out the rail tanks in the redline wherever I go. (sorry any pilots who fly with me) The video will make my points clearer. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1097	Posted - 2013.12.30 16:41:00 - [12] - Quote Quill you keep repeating without stateing a definitive. So lets cut the waffle. Do you think that redline rail tanks with 600m range and 1:1.2 elevation are balanced weapons? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1097	Posted - 2013.12.30 16:45:00 - [13] - Quote Cool. So where we disagree mainly is the elevation. What about map design having airspace that is too open? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1107	Posted - 2013.12.30 22:37:00 - [14] - Quote Too many strawmen there Quill. I can't really respond to that. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1109	Posted - 2013.12.31 00:00:00 - [15] - Quote FAKIR REDETTa wrote: adapt or die tank so op use tank Thank you for your contribution. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1111	Posted - 2013.12.31 09:39:00 - [16] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: once again we need to remove WP and isk gain from actions taken in the red line. but no one wants to hear it. That would not help. The redline tanks would still stay in the redline for the match until they clear enemy tanks and dropships from the field and then come out once safe. Or squads could have several tankers who take it in turns to sit in the reline killing all non redline vehicles. One match of low or zero WP then a few out of the redline. Or a tanker who dies on the field can just hang in the redline to get revenge on better players from safety. Stopping WP or ISK gain will not help solve the issue at all. Any asset; suit or Vehicle, should not be killed by another asset that is not even on the battlefield. If you want to earn ISK you need to risk ISK. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1137	Posted - 2014.01.05 09:56:00 - [17] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Most likely it's the damage modifiers that are broken. Base Rails are not that superb - but double or triple stacking damamods, even with stacking penalties, makes the alpha so devastating. It's +30% per mod. Never before I've seen in any ccp game dama mod that high... The damage mods are fine. They can only afford to give up HP in favor of damage mods as they don't need defence as they are so deep in the redline and cannot get hit. If they had to leave the redline running 3 damage mods would mean death from AV or other tanks. So the 3x stacking is a symptom of the redline issue Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1141	Posted - 2014.01.05 14:08:00 - [18] - Quote Read the OP Charlotte. Its the redline. I lose dropships to players not even in the battle. thats the issue. The range and elevation and damage make it worse but as we keep saying in this thread again and again... Redline. WHile these tanks are here in the redline a very unfair mechanic exists. If they are not fixed or removed temporarily then I will continue to lose ISK to a player who is taking no risk. It is not fair gameplay. A fix is complicated so here is a stopgap : If any player or vehicle is killed from within the redline they die but do NOT lose their suit or vehicle. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1238	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:18:00 - [19] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: I knew it Judge doesnt want railguns nerfed (not yet) he just wants them out of the game completely so he can rule the skies in complete safety I explained this to you the other day. Please stop telling deliberate lies It is getting really tiresome. I mean really. Shall I link you those post again? Why do you keep misrepresenting me AFTER i have CLEARLY explain myself to you several times. I guess ill have to link you AGAIN to those posts. Please read them this time. Read it this time and stop misrepresenting me after I keep explaining things to you. You may value telling lies but I do not. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1238	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:24:00 - [20] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Dropship are transports you think it's supposed to resist from a "artillery" cannon mounted on a Battle Tank ? For rail supporters here is something to consider. This still is from my upcoming redline/rail video. Blue skull is where i died. Yellow dot is where The tank was (i have the evidence to prove it). Kill card. Fair and in need of no adjustment? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1273	Posted - 2014.01.19 15:27:00 - [21] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Fair and in need of no adjustment? Fair. There would be words here but I seem to have lost them. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1286	Posted - 2014.01.19 21:31:00 - [22] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: Honestly, The only thing stopping ADS ships from going 30-0 are Rail Gun Tanks. There is nor evidence to support this statement. In fact when I see ADS in games with no rails they do not do 30-0. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1286	Posted - 2014.01.19 22:13:00 - [23] - Quote Food for thought......Border Gulch. The red zone is the airspace above 40 meters and up to 382 meters that a rail tank parked at the yellow dot can hit. All maps are like this. There is a tiny bit of cover at best and when actually doing a dropships job there is effectively none. Range from the redline? This is a death at 624 meters from a tank 130 metres into the redline. How about elevation? Fine is it? Look at the green. At 566 meters away you can hit a dropship 200meters into the air. What does the world look like to us at 200 m? This. Or in words a tiny spec below that we can not even attempt to interfere with. EDIT : This is enemy muzzle flash from 100m up. This is why we operate at or below 100m. What do we look to a tank at 461 meters? Big and easy to hit. Before you condemn Dropships or their pilots you need to ensure you really grasp the issues they face. Rails need a balance pass. There are good reasons why. Many base our opinions on the matter on solid and careful analysis. We are not just making stuff up. You have been Judged Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1346	Posted - 2014.01.25 15:03:00 - [24] - Quote If you want to see the rail tanks range and elevation so you can see that damage is not the only vairable that needs some looking at. on a chart, Its to scale. Redline to Redline is 600m and its based on spine crecent. I worked out the tanks elevation to be 45 degrees or near enough. That's at ground level mind you. Its far far worse when you add a hill The forge gunner is at the middle objective, Alpha that is on the bridge. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

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