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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1104
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Posted - 2013.12.21 03:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I agree. ADS harassing people? Pull out your 69,000 ISK double amped rail Sica and pop it from halfway across the map in seconds. They are broken against other tanks, too. When the enemy has 2-3 rail tanks, you can't deploy ANYTHING. Even if you do manage to deploy the one thing that kills them, another rail tank, they usually already know where it is and pop it as soon as you peak your tank out of cover for a shot.
Of course, without rails, good shield tanks would be even harder to take out.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1105
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Posted - 2013.12.21 04:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:... on this map are other players in Amarr suits. You are the only Caldari player. But the snipers are not interested in the Amarr players. They are smaller and harder to see and have small walls that your caldari suit cannot hide behind. So the 3 snipers only have you to look for the entire match.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1109
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Posted - 2013.12.22 00:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:No they are not. If anything is broken it's your dropships.
I hate how they are now (near unkillable) and with no propper anti-aircraft weaponry. If railtanks can fill that niche now then I applaude it. Because having RGs popping Dropships in 2 shots from the redline being the primary defense is obviously balanced. How about making other options worth using?
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1112
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Posted - 2013.12.22 00:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:No they are not. If anything is broken it's your dropships.
I hate how they are now (near unkillable) and with no propper anti-aircraft weaponry. If railtanks can fill that niche now then I applaude it. Because having RGs popping Dropships in 2 shots from the redline being the primary defense is obviously balanced. How about making other options worth using? Yes but that is like saying AV is balanced when the best method is an ELAV. The only REAL problem is the redline. Rail Tanks are just the start, we are meant to get access to full blown artillery, long range bombardment is valid tactic, what's wrong is the ability to do this from a SAFE ZONE. Its that it can be done from a location where the user can't be retailiated against. Agreed that the redline is the problem. I'm just pointing out that because normal AV has a problem taking out Dropships, he thinks anything that anything that drops them like flies is completely balanced.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1113
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Posted - 2013.12.22 00:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
CEOPyrex CloneA wrote:Its strange that i seem to not be thinking anything is OP lately
The redline railgun snipers all die to my own railgun sniper quite easily, often they bring another in to try and deal with me, we hit that also.
Dropships do seem to die quickly to them i agree but the reward of you having your dropship in is perhaps 20-30 kills, cant have that much power without some risk surely?
We seem to want to try to make Dust 514 a simple 'rock paper scissors' exercise but i think most people have this entirely wrong, if they call in a tank, i also will call in a tank, they use a dropship to get on high, i also will do the same.
Often its about smacking down an enemy so that they stop doing something (thales snipers being killed by miltia shotgunners for example)
The endless call for this and that to be nerfed / buffed only ever destabilizes the game further i am afraid. sometimes things are best left not messed with as this entire forum for about a year has been a diatribe of nerf posts and frankly its getting dull. So, when the enemy drops 6 fully kitted out HAVs, I'm guessing you just deploy your own RG HAV and pop them all, right? Also, having "rock counters rock" forces every team to have equal amounts of everything just to have a balanced match dependent on some modicum of skill and tactics rather than "They have only 1 Rock, deploy 5 Rocks and we can smash everything else!"
Basically, you want whoever deploys the best tanks to win every battle, which is what happens now, especially in Ambush. Have you seen Ambush? I guess when the 6 HAVs with 20.0 K/Ds are rolling out in a mode all about K/D, you just say "I'll deploy my rail tank right in the center of these 6 tanks, hope it doesn't get instantly popped on deployment, roll all the way to the redline and pop all 6 of them through their modules while also preventing them from mowing down all the infantry shooting marshmallows at them!" Obviously, Ambush is a somewhat laughable mode as it is, but this extends to all the other modes to some extent.
The only time I don't need to worry about the enemy team deploying several HAVs and rolling over everything is when I, myself, am in a tank squad. Not every one is in a tank squad nor should they need to be to not get stomped. If there are no enemy tanks, I just cycle my hardeners and crush everything. I've gotten mails saying people are quitting because of all the tanks stomping the crap out of them on my side. Yet, the problem does not exist and is purely forum banter. OK.
---
As for pilots being too powerful without redline rail sniping, well, that's again because the balance sucks. Maybe if AV were worth a damn against decent dropships we could implement it just fine. Also, what about using dropships to fight dropships? I thought you believed in rock beats rock. What's the problem, just deploy a dropship and smack him down? They deploy 3 tanks, you deploy 3 tanks, they deploy 3 dropships, you deploy... wait, you're out of dropship pilots so now they win. Which is why you want tanks to take out dropships. Yet tank balance is fine with only tanks taking out other tanks. What?
True balanced cannot be achieved, but you can make the game more than about who has the most rocks to pelt the enemy side with.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1114
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Posted - 2013.12.22 01:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
CEOPyrex CloneA wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:CEOPyrex CloneA wrote:Iwords. more words True balanced cannot be achieved, but you can make the game more than about who has the most rocks to pelt the enemy side with. Good post is good, agree that when people spam 6 tanks, unless you have a tank team on your side it could be said to be a tough match from the offset :) I find that our squad play has become very much about flexibility, so when we run a gang we can at a push field 5/6 tanks between just us if the enemy spams tanks. Then its a head butting contest until one side gives up. Im really not sure if its right or not, its fun but for those who specialised into a role, you are screwed pretty much. I would also perhaps stress that its okay to leave battles as well, often if you see a proto stomp forming, a tank spam gathering, its not the end of the world to drop that game and start another...... or is that bad etiquette? i rarely know which spoon to use at the Dust 514 battle table nowadays. Well, I'm glad you responded with a mellow, thought out reply. As you said, squads need to be able to field several HAVs to stop the enemy HAVs when the spam starts, which can be a problem. Additionally, even with even odds, if you don't have the ISK to continue and they keep pumping HAVs out, you're going to have to give up and lose. In FW, okay, everyone tries to get a few pilots on their squads and between them maybe they can pull it off. The problem is that not everyone should be forced to play pubs matches in squads that can do it all.
Specializing has become a bad thing, when focusing on one or two roles in a game like this is supposed to be a good thing. If you specialized in an infantry role, you could kill most things with skill. AV is cheap enough that many players have specced at least partially into it, and everyone has militia stuff, which should add some parity to the battlefield. However, this is no longer the case because AV cannot overcome true (not militia, even though militia is dangerous too) spam. I have a lot of fun when I'm with multiple players I know can/will field HAVs when the going gets rough. Then I can stomp everything or at least have a fair fight when I lose.
Playing solo then puts me versus 5 HAVs again and I realize that it's become impossible to play casually and not get rolled on, because there are now prerequisites for victory regarding what you can field. Proto stomping is pretty bad, but even in standard or advanced gear, with a multitude of weapons and suits, I can take out more of them than they do of me. With tanks, the problems are greatly amplified; you die again and again, and maybe your whole team pops 1-2 tanks, with the majority of players getting to do diddly squat. It's not the same as proto stomping, either, because their gear has more invested in it and is supposed to be better in every way; tanks are a role, not a higher tier of gear, which is what they are essentially balanced as now.
As for quitting, I usually try not to. I do if the lag is really bad, I get glitched or I'm getting really frustrated, but I'd like to be able to play with who I want and have a good time without worrying that if the enemy field several tanks, we're going to have to leave. I could do that in 1.6. Sure, I'd get stomped if we didn't field a lot of proto gear against a proto team, but we could do a lot more against them (provided they didn't camp an uplink in Ambush) than can be done against tank squads.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1114
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Posted - 2013.12.22 01:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:CEOPyrex CloneA wrote:A further thought,
So many of the 'nerf this and that' posts are also pretty much one sided in their arguments, so for example if we nerfed railguns, dropships would likely be almost impossible to kill (lets face it, good pilots with hardners etc make them pretty tough already)
So in the above scenario, if railguns were nerfed, we would see a tidal wave of "DROPSHIPS ARE SO OP OMG NERF THEM" posts
CCP cannot win, we are a terribly single minded, short sighted community who care about our own guns, suits, modules and vehicles, and anything that shoots us down / kills us with perceived (wrongly) ease, we flame about it needing a nerf.
I will stick my neck out and say true balance cannot be achieved, this isnt starcraft and the sooner we just accept that a cruise missile is going to be more OP than a TOW missile, the more we will grow as a community and stop whinging about Utopian balance.
(i do agree railguns are insane - but why expend so much energy balancing when CCP could be creating more content)
Keep it coming. Posts like this needs to be said since most are just hopping on a bandwagon just because. I'm in a tank 90% of the time and not a militia one. I'm hopping on the bandwagon because in any match where the enemy doesn't field a better tank to pop mine, I go 25/0 through 3-6 guys with AV on my ass, baring my being a complete idiot and not activating hardeners or something. If I have friendly tanks, they can deploy any number of tanks less than ours and, once again, 25/0-1. All the rewards with none of the risk of putting my boots on the ground. My weekly K/D is always around 6.0, if I never leave my tank (I leave my tank all the time to drop uplinks and hack stuff) and never deploy on the ground, I'm easily hitting a 10.0 K/D. I'm not even a good tanker or have tens of millions in tanks. I've seen tankers with 30.0 K/Ds. It's ludicrous. I can just cycle my hardeners 100% of the time and laugh as the marshmallows impact my tank.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1843
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Posted - 2013.12.30 23:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I try not to damn certain game tactics or weapons as broken unless it is desperate. But rail gun tanks are just so completely broken it has me wondering if they were properly tested.
They have Huge alpha, Huge Hp, Huge Range, Huge elevation and they can be immune in the redline. Not just in the redline but they can shoot an objective from 300m in the redline. This is monstrously stupid. I cannot move in any map, or any game mode without a rail tank or three that are up to 300 meters into the redline 1 or 2 shotting my dropship. It is absolutely broken. I have even been killed at the maximum flight ceiling. Exactly what is a flying vehicles advantage if a tank can kill it anywhere in the entire sky?
They are not in need of slight balance or tweaking but plain broken to the point that they should not be in the game with the maps that we have.
I am making a video to make my point but at this stage CCP. They need to go. Now. Until they can be made to work with current map size and until you fix the broken and unbalanced redline they have to go. SImply remove the rail turret until we can make a weapon that powerful work within the limits of fair balance,
I only make threads like this if something is game breakingly bad. And I don't like to. But this is a special case. Did you know that at 250m from an objective, from a flat surface a rail tank can shoot a dropship 238 meters up?! Tanks rule the ground and the sky. At 238 meters my dropship is useless. I have to sit, in complete exposure evey single game to these distant, redline tanks. I can't use skill or tactics to avoid them. They see me all the time from complete safety. The tank can cover any area a dropship can operate in from a single spot up to 540m away (proven tested distance)
So here it is CCP. Take out that turret. Now. Until we can balance it. Its unfair and it breaks air/ground balance. CCP, you need to speak to us pilots about this. Not part-timers; but us full on dropship guys. Please engage us. In private, behind NDAs or whatever you feel is best but we really need to talk with you. This stuff needs fixing. ASAP. Why not just decrease tracking speed? Rails have BAD tracking speeds in EVE it'd make them unable to move their turret around up close and force them to snipe... The tracking speed already sucks enough in TvT without proficiency. I can nitrous sidle a Gunnlogi and without proficiency, he can't even hit me. Lowering it further would force even more into the red line which is the opposite of what is desired.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1844
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Posted - 2013.12.31 00:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
FAKIR REDETTa wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I try not to damn certain game tactics or weapons as broken unless it is desperate. But rail gun tanks are just so completely broken it has me wondering if they were properly tested.
They have Huge alpha, Huge Hp, Huge Range, Huge elevation and they can be immune in the redline. Not just in the redline but they can shoot an objective from 300m in the redline. This is monstrously stupid. I cannot move in any map, or any game mode without a rail tank or three that are up to 300 meters into the redline 1 or 2 shotting my dropship. It is absolutely broken. I have even been killed at the maximum flight ceiling. Exactly what is a flying vehicles advantage if a tank can kill it anywhere in the entire sky?
They are not in need of slight balance or tweaking but plain broken to the point that they should not be in the game with the maps that we have.
I am making a video to make my point but at this stage CCP. They need to go. Now. Until they can be made to work with current map size and until you fix the broken and unbalanced redline they have to go. SImply remove the rail turret until we can make a weapon that powerful work within the limits of fair balance,
I only make threads like this if something is game breakingly bad. And I don't like to. But this is a special case. Did you know that at 250m from an objective, from a flat surface a rail tank can shoot a dropship 238 meters up?! Tanks rule the ground and the sky. At 238 meters my dropship is useless. I have to sit, in complete exposure evey single game to these distant, redline tanks. I can't use skill or tactics to avoid them. They see me all the time from complete safety. The tank can cover any area a dropship can operate in from a single spot up to 540m away (proven tested distance)
So here it is CCP. Take out that turret. Now. Until we can balance it. Its unfair and it breaks air/ground balance. CCP, you need to speak to us pilots about this. Not part-timers; but us full on dropship guys. Please engage us. In private, behind NDAs or whatever you feel is best but we really need to talk with you. This stuff needs fixing. ASAP. adapt or die tank so op use tank "The golden gun is OP! Everyone use the golden gun and nothing else!"
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2120
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I try not to damn certain game tactics or weapons as broken unless it is desperate. But rail gun tanks are just so completely broken it has me wondering if they were properly tested.
They have Huge alpha, Huge Hp, Huge Range, Huge elevation and they can be immune in the redline. Not just in the redline but they can shoot an objective from 300m in the redline. This is monstrously stupid. I cannot move in any map, or any game mode without a rail tank or three that are up to 300 meters into the redline 1 or 2 shotting my dropship. It is absolutely broken. I have even been killed at the maximum flight ceiling. Exactly what is a flying vehicles advantage if a tank can kill it anywhere in the entire sky?
They are not in need of slight balance or tweaking but plain broken to the point that they should not be in the game with the maps that we have.
I am making a video to make my point but at this stage CCP. They need to go. Now. Until they can be made to work with current map size and until you fix the broken and unbalanced redline they have to go. SImply remove the rail turret until we can make a weapon that powerful work within the limits of fair balance,
I only make threads like this if something is game breakingly bad. And I don't like to. But this is a special case. Did you know that at 250m from an objective, from a flat surface a rail tank can shoot a dropship 238 meters up?! Tanks rule the ground and the sky. At 238 meters my dropship is useless. I have to sit, in complete exposure evey single game to these distant, redline tanks. I can't use skill or tactics to avoid them. They see me all the time from complete safety. The tank can cover any area a dropship can operate in from a single spot up to 540m away (proven tested distance)
So here it is CCP. Take out that turret. Now. Until we can balance it. Its unfair and it breaks air/ground balance. CCP, you need to speak to us pilots about this. Not part-timers; but us full on dropship guys. Please engage us. In private, behind NDAs or whatever you feel is best but we really need to talk with you. This stuff needs fixing. ASAP. I knew it Judge doesnt want railguns nerfed (not yet) he just wants them out of the game completely so he can rule the skies in complete safety I wouldn't call 3000 armor damage a shot from a Breach complete safety. Missiles are also useful if ships fly too low.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2135
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Posted - 2014.01.15 01:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Anoko Destrolock wrote:IMO the problems with rails are only partially due to the railgun My suggestions: Limit Railgun range to 300-350m Change missile range to 200m, since they arent viable at their current max range because they are inaccurate Limit tanks to 1 dmg mod nerf dmg mods to 15-20%
Damage mods and redline immunity are the biggest issues. People dont talk about dmg mods being OP but that is a huge part of the problem. +57% dmg is a lot for a mlt tank... people are stacking dmg mods on a cheap tank for 2 shot kills
When you do the math, dmg mods are just stupid and broken. Personally, id like to see them removed from both tanks and infantry. Because they amplify imbalances as much as dmg
MLT rail with 1 dmg mod: 1885 dmg 16k isk
MLT rail with 2 dmg mods 2276 dmg 20k isk
Proto rail 1885 dmg 242k isk
Proto rail, 3 dmg mods 3300 dmg, 254k isk It's +63% for two because the effect is exponential (the second/third amp adds a smaller percentage but it adds it to the bonus damage of the amps before it as well, effectively). 3 are 92% for the same reason.
Glass cannon proto rails hit for around 3900 damage to shields/3200 damage to armor. Glass cannon Sicas hit for ~2600 shield damage and over ~2100 armor damage. 2HKO and 3HKO with glass cannon Sicas to shield/armor tanks. Glass cannon Particle Cannon Gunnlogi can 2HKO unhardened, unplated armor and, IIRC, 3HKO the RDV. Really, their RoF is too high/overheat is too slow for the damage. The redline is the biggest problem, though and is one of the only things that ticks me off in TvT beyond their pure DPS. Booster/Hardener/Amplifier with a Cannon is extremely annoying to kill. 2/3HKO like glass cannon Sicas but the Booster + Hardener makes it very hard to alpha before it gets away. Shields drop, booster + hardener goes up, next shot hits, tank disappears behind a mountain.
Glass cannon rails can OHKO unextended shield dropships. Not sure about extended, but 3900 shield damage isn't easy to tank with any set and are perfectly safe in the redline.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2173
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Posted - 2014.01.19 16:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yesterday, I destroyed a Python in one shot from 500m. All Pythons except those with a Complex Heavy Shield Extender die in one shot to a glass cannon, with no warning. They're just flying along and bam, dead.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2175
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Posted - 2014.01.19 23:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Yesterday, I destroyed a Python in one shot from 500m. All Pythons except those with a Complex Heavy Shield Extender die in one shot to a glass cannon, with no warning. They're just flying along and bam, dead. A Complex Heavy Shield Extender Python would survive with, according to my calculations, a whopping 100 armor. I don't think a python can even fit that even with the fitting skill. I'll hop on and give it a try though, it will probably be the only thing I can fit. I'm pretty sure you can fit a complex and a proto turret and nothing else. Maybe with full optimization a single STD shield module. Either way, no one runs it, so Pythons are almost always OHKOs.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
2175
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Posted - 2014.01.19 23:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Food for thought...... Border Gulch. The red zone is the airspace above 40 meters and up to 382 meters that a rail tank parked at the yellow dot can hit. All maps are like this. There is a tiny bit of cover at best and when actually doing a dropships job there is effectively none. Range from the redline? This is a death at 624 meters from a tank 130 metres into the redline. How about elevation? Fine is it? Look at the green. At 566 meters away you can hit a dropship 200meters into the air. What does the world look like to us at 200 m? This. Or in words a tiny spec below that we can not even attempt to interfere with. This is enemy muzzle flash from 100m up. This is why we operate at or below 100m. What do we look to a tank at 461 meters? Big and easy to hit. Before you condemn Dropships or their pilots you need to ensure you really grasp the issues they face. Rails need a balance pass. There are good reasons why. Many base our opinions on the matter on solid and careful analysis. We are not just making stuff up. You have been Judged Good post, Judge. At such a distance, leading the target is required. However, when you kill in one to two shots, it doesn't really matter. Redline tanks can also sit there going through multiple mags if need be until you die. IMO, all damage going into and out of the redline should be halved and dropships, especially Pythons, should receive a natural resistance to rail damage; enough that an extended Python won't get killed in one shot, at least.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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