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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1236
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Posted - 2013.12.18 18:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
......really?
CPU and PG Upgrade modules are both low slots, so while shield vehicles lack in utility, they are capable of fitting A LOT more on their vehicle by making use of these upgrades. Not only is it easier to equip small turrets on shield vehicles because of this advantage, but your overall defenses as well as large turrets can be pushed to higher tiers more easily.
How is that not useful?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1239
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:......really?
CPU and PG Upgrade modules are both low slots, so while shield vehicles lack in utility, they are capable of fitting A LOT more on their vehicle by making use of these upgrades. Not only is it easier to equip small turrets on shield vehicles because of this advantage, but your overall defenses as well as large turrets can be pushed to higher tiers more easily.
How is that not useful? It offers no Utility. None. 0. Any more gank is offset by a single Dmod easily fitted on an armor vehicle.
Damage mods which are not always active and consume so much CPU on an armor tank that defenses suffer greatly. Better turret is active all the time.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1239
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:......really?
CPU and PG Upgrade modules are both low slots, so while shield vehicles lack in utility, they are capable of fitting A LOT more on their vehicle by making use of these upgrades. Not only is it easier to equip small turrets on shield vehicles because of this advantage, but your overall defenses as well as large turrets can be pushed to higher tiers more easily.
How is that not useful? It offers no Utility. None. 0. Any more gank is offset by a single Dmod easily fitted on an armor vehicle. Damage mods which are not always active and consume so much CPU on an armor tank that defenses suffer greatly. Better turret is active all the time. I see armor tanks with 1k shields, 4k armor (1k more than I have shields btw) with a tag of "WARNING: DAMAGE MOD ACTIVE!" So please don't come at me with that nonsense. Plus this isn't about tanks v tanks. It's a massive vehicle imbalance. One side has options while the other has none.
I think you're a little lacking in experience when it comes to fitting armor vehicles in 1.7.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but take it from someone who has fully maxed shield and armor skills and frequently uses both HAV types as well as all turrets.
Pretty much all viable armor tanks will have 1200 Shield and 4000 Armor because fitting a plate just isn't worth it and that's the BASE HP that Madrugars and Soma's have, and putting shield extenders on an armor tank....again really isn't worth it. So the HP values are meaningless.
However the CPU cost of a damage mod is roughly 25% of the TOTAL CPU that a Madrugar has. With that much cost, it is essentially impossible to fit one with decent defenses because a CPU upgrade is usually required. That being said, the armor tank now only has 2 low slots to work with which means it will have an armor repairer, and a single hardener. Only have a single hardener is a significant disadvantage as it means a hardened uptime of 35-55% of the time and no means to rapidly recover HP as you can with a shield booster.
So I'm sorry but you're wrong, armor has to sacrifice a good deal in order to fit that damage mod.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1239
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't have maxed out turrets, I took all of those to Proto with some support skills, but all to level V.
All defensive skills are to V, HAV is to I because anything above that is wasteful right now. So no, it's not 40 million to get to where I am.
CPU/PG are not necessary to fit the same weapons on a Shield HAV than an Armor HAV use, it does however give them *better* offensive options without sacrificing defenses. Armor has to sacrifice defenses to increase offensive capabilities.
I'm arguing that you're wrong in that CPU/PG upgrades have zero utility, because there are some really fun fits that I can do with a Caldari HAV BECAUSE of those modules, which are simply not possible on an armor HAV due to resource limitations. You simply CANNOT fit a full gambit of armor defenses AND a damage mod, there is simply not enough CPU. If you don't believe me go to do the math yourself.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I don't have maxed out turrets, I took all of those to Proto with some support skills, but all to level V.
All defensive skills are to V, HAV is to I because anything above that is wasteful right now. So no, it's not 40 million to get to where I am.
CPU/PG are not necessary to fit the same weapons on a Shield HAV than an Armor HAV use, it does however give them *better* offensive options without sacrificing defenses. Armor has to sacrifice defenses to increase offensive capabilities.
I'm arguing that you're wrong in that CPU/PG upgrades have zero utility, because there are some really fun fits that I can do with a Caldari HAV BECAUSE of those modules, which are simply not possible on an armor HAV due to resource limitations. You simply CANNOT fit a full gambit of armor defenses AND a damage mod, there is simply not enough CPU. If you don't believe me go to do the math yourself. Maybe if you maxed out turret fitting optimization you might have less issues? I'm unsure. I know I see gallente tanks running around with a hardener on, 1.3k more HP than me, and "WARNING: DAMAGE MOD ACTIVE!" This again, blatantly ignores scanners, MCRUs, nitrous, and aerial boosters which aren't nearly as resource intensive and offer mad utility. for ALL gallente vehicles, not just tanks.
Turret skills are the same for both tank types, so that is really the same for both shield and armor. Besides, the only turret that fits *well* on an gallente HAV is a blaster, which has the lowest CPU cost and thus gains the least amount of benefit from the skill.
Besides, these mechanics are parrel to EVE. Traditionally speaking, Gallente excel at EWAR because they are able to fit more utility to their ships. Caldari ships, while lacking in utility, are able to fit harder hitting ships because of slot setup. While there is a difference between EVE and Dust in that damage mods are in the "shield slots" in Dust and are normally in the "Armor Slots" in EVE, the resource costs for Armor HAVs is the prohibitive factor in the case of damage output. THat being said we see a dynamic where Armor can more readily fit utility, and and shield can fit a more flexible gambit of offenses (Small turrets, better large turrets, and even the added benefit of being able to transport troops because the small turrets open a seat).
In addition you are able to fit large missiles much more easily which by FAR do the most burst DPS in the game, even without a damage mod. Armor HAVs simply cant support the CPU cost of large missiles without giving up significant defenses. Again, do the math, you'll find that the burst damage that an armor HAV with a blaster and damage mod, is significantly lower than a un-modded missile turret.
So you're right, Caldari get screwed on utility modules such as fuel injectors, scanners, ect. but this is working as intended. Instead you get the added benefit of more weapon flexibility, more ammo, better torque, and troop transport.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Now look who is cherry picking 
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:In Eve the Caldari have shields in the mid slots (Dust's version of high slots; same symbol and everything) and damage mods in the lows. The point of Caldari is to get in, deal damage, get out. The hit-and-run type of gameplay. Armor is about getting there and staying there, using high ehp numbers to simply outlast the enemy. They also use many types of EWAR to help them gain the upper hand.
Dust's damage mods, both infantry and vehicle, should be low slots. Shields cant hit and run if their armor tanking opponents have both tank and gank. Then once EWAR for vehicles starts coming out, start putting those in the high slots.
This is what I like to see. I get on some wikis from time to time but its so overbearing. So it makes little sense for gallente to have faster vehicles (via nitrous) and harder hitting vehicles (via dmods) from an EvE perspective.
Except in EVE speed modules are medium slot (Dust High Slot) modules so they're more regularly used by Gallente who use Low slots.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Now look who is cherry picking Scanners, Nitrous, mCRUs, Aerial boosters. utility modules. not just Dmods. (which is the only thing apparently that gallente tanks shouldn't have) LAVs, Dropships. not just Tanks. Please look at the whole picture and then come back.
Scanners - Gallente often have better EWAR in EVE and most of these modules go into Mid slot (Dust High Slot)
Nitrous/Afterburner - Gallente are always going to be faster than Caldari, and again in EVE these modules go in Mid Slot (Dust High Slot)
mCRU - I guess a Clone Vat Bay would be the best example from EVE, which I believe goes in a Low slot? Im not sure on that, but would have no issue with that being a low slot in Dust.
Damage Mods - Generally EVE Low slots, its an odd choice that CCP chose to make them High in Dust but they seem to be sticking to it. However, considering how insane the burst DPS on Missiles are (and they should be), it seems the damage mods are a big of a counter to allow armor tanks some burst damage, but not all the time.
EDIT: I'd also like to note that there are modules in EVE which effectively increase the "torque" of a ship, which are low slots just like Dust.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Now look who is cherry picking Scanners, Nitrous, mCRUs, Aerial boosters. utility modules. not just Dmods. (which is the only thing apparently that gallente tanks shouldn't have) LAVs, Dropships. not just Tanks. Please look at the whole picture and then come back. Scanners - Gallente often have better EWAR in EVE and most of these modules go into Mid slot (Dust High Slot) Nitrous/Afterburner - Gallente are always going to be faster than Caldari, and again in EVE these modules go in Mid Slot (Dust High Slot) mCRU - I guess a Clone Vat Bay would be the best example from EVE, which I believe goes in a Low slot? Im not sure on that, but would have no issue with that being a low slot in Dust. Damage Mods - Generally EVE Low slots, its an odd choice that CCP chose to make them High in Dust but they seem to be sticking to it. However, considering how insane the burst DPS on Missiles are (and they should be), it seems the damage mods are a big of a counter to allow armor tanks some burst damage, but not all the time. This makes no sense to me. Caldari are the hit and run race. Except we're slower. With no Dmods. Gotcha.
I'm just quoting the source, and considering EVE has been around and kicking for over 10 years now, obviously things are working fine.
Hit and Run? Have your run the numbers on large missiles?
Also, I suspect we'll see damage modules which are passive and increase damage output by a smaller %, and be low slot items. This is namely because shields ships get passive damage modules in the low slots, and active 'effective' damage modules in the mids.
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