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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
179
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Posted - 2013.12.17 22:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
I will state, before anything else, that I personally feel that the Swarm Launchers have been overly nerfed: I think they should either have significant range with their current damage (to keep Dropships wary) or be more powerful with their short lock-on range.
Agent Overkill wrote:When someone brings out AV and starts shooting at me I could either just sit there and gun them down, then leave for a short while and continue assaulting the enemies.
I am a dropship pilot (Python) but I have tried my hand with some higher end fits using some of the available HAV hulls. As far as face-tanking is concerned, the dropship is not capable of simply standing still and expected to go unscathed and even with the Soma/Sica, it's not reasonable to just sit and soak up repeated Forge Gun rounds without risk. Sure, with my Hardener turned on I can almost certainly soak enough damage to survive one AV user while I still contribute usefully, but if a second AVer comes along, or they turn up the heat in some way I am forced to back off.
Agent Overkill wrote:Go away and not even have to turn on any active modules, sneak up on the AV people and kill them with my mods on that time.
Retreating and sneaking up is definitely possible. But if someone has pulled out AV to deal with a decent pilot, they should be punished for being unobservant. HAVs have a relatively limited number of approaches to objectives or otherwise important locations and while dropships have a substantial manoeuvrability advantage, particularly elevation, they are most definitely vulnerable to an aware AV user.
Agent Overkill wrote:If its a lone forgegunner using rocky terrain to make it hard for me to kill him, I just get as close as I can, exit my vehicle and kill him as he wastes shots shooting my temporarily invincible tank and kill him. Some of them realize that they need to kill me first then my vehicle or steal it, but I'm usually in a heavy suit too and able to kill 2 of em before my vehicle is doomed.
So, your solution to AV is to expose your - relatively - squishy dropsuit and engage in a one-on-one? What if the AVer isn't stupid and has decent sidearm gun-game? What if he had friends hiding and jumps you? You can bring friends too (and more sensible than self exposure) but that doesn't mean you'll kill them first.
And even then, you're now relying on identifying the threat, being able to reach the target and survive their attacks before dealing with them.
Agent Overkill wrote:When I'm in my caldari assault dropship, I can just hover near forgunners and take as long as I need to kill them, because of my awesome OP fit, and also retreat for less than 20seconds and continue killing the enemies.
Disagree. Maybe a triple Hardener fit doesn't have a long downtime before it has a Hardener running again, but with only 1500 shields, it will only take maybe three Forge Gun hits. If you're remaining aloft in a certain area for an extended period, you will give the AVer time to get their eye in and make yourself a greater target to things like the Railgunners - even a Hardened Python will go down to a few Railgun shots. Even then, the force effects of the AV weapons have a pretty powerful impact (pun not intended) on how well a dropship operates offensively.
I cannot remember the number of times I've had my aim spoiled by a Swarm volley or Forge Gun round impacting on the rear end of my dropship, slamming me about. Whilst you might survive, you've got to readjust and reacquire your target, giving the AVer time and enemies more time to evade.
Agent Overkill wrote:[TL;DR version]
What I'm trying to say is that active module cooldowns aren't that long enough, swarms travel too slow and one can get out of range quickly, and dodging forgegun shots is easier than ever; thus making vehicles OP compared to the AV. The only practical form of AV are other tanks, especially railgun tanks.
I agree that module cooldowns are somewhat short, even without max skills. I'll agree with the travel time on Swarm missiles, though I'd also prefer other solutions for Swarms first.
As far as dodging Forge Gun shots, I don't think that is the issue directly -that's HAVs being insanely fast, which should hopefully be helped by the hotfix on the 18th (tomorrow.) |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
179
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 23:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Agent Overkill wrote:I was not talking about taking hits from other tanks, just forgegunners.
I didn't actually talk about getting attacked by other tanks, just that going from a balanced-fit Python to a tank-fit Sica/Some I noticed that I still couldn't just expect to sit in the fire.
Agent Overkill wrote:If you 2 hardeners and a shield booster, you can take a few forgegun hits, and when your shields get low, you can activate the 2nd hardener and talk so little damage, that your shields will regen will kick in and be back to full shields. If your shields are really low or have been taken out, you can just use your booster and retreat with full HP and a hardener still active, then make the module go into cooldown under good cover.
I don't know. Maybe I just expect Proto AV, but looking at the Assault Forge Gun (ie, the only worthwhile FG):
Ishukone AFG does 1500 damage. Against a Gunnlogi with 3 Hardeners, you're looking at only 2650 shields which, after hit efficacy and Hardener reduction is still doing 540 damage - a little under 20% damage to that vehicle's primary tank. So even with all High slots filled with Hardeners, you're not looking at a sure thing about surviving. The only thing keeping you going is the 4 second Recharge Delay.
And that's an IAFG without any buff from Proficiency or any damage mods. With Proficiency Five and two Complex Damage Mods it's doing, before efficacy/reduction: 2045.85. With efficacy/reduction that's doing:
736.5 versus Shields
1350.3 versus Armour.
Agent Overkill wrote:If you have 3 harderners, you can just active the 2nd one when your shield hp is halfway and you'll be invincible for a short while. When your 1st hardener goes out, just use your 3rd and continue invincibility. When your 2nd one goes out, you have your 3rd one going and still have full shields. When your 3rd hardener has 10 seconds remaining, retreat until the 1st and 2nd hardeners come back in less than 30seconds.
As above, the only thing keeping the Gunnlogi going is the 4 second Recharge Delay, which means that the Forge Gun loses out once the Gunnlogi begins to recharge.
Agent Overkill wrote:I'm in a heavy suit too and have a combat rifle with an advanced SMG. If the sidearm using heavy is too much of a treat for me, or if the he gets backup, I can just go back to my tank. I also usually have squadmates that that aren't too far away to support me in that area too when needed.
Then we're getting into the depths of theory and variables.
One Forge Gunner is likely insufficient to take down a vehicle, primarily due to mobility: the vehicle is almost certainly faster, if less manoeuvrable. |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
182
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 14:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Agent Overkill wrote:You math is wrong, you should use the Dust Vehicle Fitting Tool to calculate how much resistance you get with 2 shield hardeners active, which is 81% resistance.
Well, I was working on a single Hardener being active basis.
Agent Overkill wrote:Based on calculations done in the Dust Infantry Fitting Tool, a proto assault forgegun with 2 complex hvy dmg mods and proficiency Lv5 will do 2286.81 base damage per shot; against a vehicle with 2 shield hardeners will do 390.91 damage per shot.
Incorrect. The Forge Guns were updated in 1.7 and the fitting tool has not been appropriately updated. The link you posted actually states that the tool is relevant up to 1.6.
Agent Overkill wrote:I haven't encountered much enemies with that build to know if that much damage will stop my shields from regeneration in that circumstance, but its still easy to escape and continue after a short while with the low cooldown times I get with my hardeners and skill bonuses to active module cooldowns.
Indeed, while Hardeners are active, especially if two are running, then any kind of AV is going to struggle. At that point you're needing another HAV with a Rail to break through the resistances...but then that's also what the Hardeners are for: a short period of incredbile power.
The main issue is that there are fits that can get around the waves of opportunity. Increasing cooldown lengths and/or limiting Hardener modules would be one way to resolve the issue.
Agent Overkill wrote:Also if someone were to shoot me with proto swarms with complex damage mods and prof Lv5, it wouldn't do enough damage per missile to stop my shields from regenerating.
Indeed. With even a single Shield Hardener, Proto Swarms do not stop my Python's shield regeneration. I think we agreed above that Swarms need a little something. |
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