DUST Search - What does the Fox Say... about AV?

Echo 1991 wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

A huge part of the balance issue right now is militia tanks. Under no circumstances should a virtually free militia tank with no SP invested function even remotely close to a standard tank with a healthy amount of SP invested. They should be paper thin test run machines that give you a feel for tanking, but will be roasted by prototype AV.

Right now, free militia tanks shrug off plenty of prototype AV. I'm fine with standard, SP invested tanks doing that. Free tanks for all? Not nearly as much.

The difference should be similar to the difference between militia dropsuits and standard dropsuits.

I think the bigger difference should come from the skill point investment. I donGÇÖt have a problem with a dedicated tanker ripping it up in a melita tank, but as you say it is a real problem when people with no skill points invested in vehicles can dominate in tanks.

I have not looked at the vehicle tree. Can someone post up the significant skills that should make a dedicated tanker better than a no skill tanker? I assume there are base armour and shield skills. How much better are the Complex modules over the Melita modules? Is the gap between militia and Proto wide enough?

There are no skills that increase base tank stats like shield and armour, just skills that reduce PG and CPU costs and cool downs on modules. Also the difference between militia and complex is fitting requirements and cooldown time, not sure about duration.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1850	Posted - 2013.12.16 14:17:00 - [1] - Quote I am Fox Gaden. You may know me as the author of Fox Guide: Swarm Launcher, Unleashing the Swarm. Dedicated tankers may remember me as the Swarm Launcher specialist that posted in many of their threads in prior to 1.7 to say that yes indeed, the Swarm Launcher was OP. Well, it is not OP now! I think the current stat of Vehicle vs AV balance can best be illustrated by noting the number of players who donGÇÖt have a single point into Vehicles skills and no experience in tanking, who are achieving great success with Militia tanks. This strongly suggests that things are out of balance, with AV being too weak. I spent the weekend testing the Proto Swarm Launcher to confirm these suspicion. Now, before I go into my findings I want to make one thing clear. I was not wasting ammo on shiny tanks. When a tank activated its cool-downs I would wait them out, and attack when their cool-downs were on cool-down. So you can just assume for the rest of this post that unless I say otherwise, I am not talking bout tanks with their active modules on. While I did get some tank kills, and a lot of kill assists, this was largely due to the large number of infantry running AV and the large number of friendly tanks. I went into a match with two other Swarm Launchers in my squad and we spent the entire match chasing tanks and did not get a single tank kill. However, when 5 enemy tanks congregated around a single objective in another match all the infantry they killed spawned back in with AV fits. 5 or 6 infantry AV were able to take down 5 tanks fairly quickly by focus firing, but many of the AV infantry died multiple times during the engagement, and this took a third of our team away from doing infantry work. I was not counting on the Swarm Launcher alone. I was also getting in close whenever I could to flux the shields off and/or strap remote explosives to the tank, so that when my Swarms hit, there would be a bit more punch. While these methods seemed workable, they did not do enough to overcome the weakness of the Swarm Launcher. I think HAVGÇÖs are in a good spot right now. I think the balance should be achieved by buffing the Swarm Launcher. I donGÇÖt want the Swarm Launcher to be OP again as it was before 1.7, but it needs to be powerful enough to cull the herd of tanks and pick off the inept and the unskilled. Swarm missile damage should be buffed from 220 to 250 per missile (down from 330 in 1.6). Swarm Luncher lock range should be buffed from 175m to 200m (down from 400m in 1.6). I think that this would still leave the Swarm Launcher underpowered, but it is better to take a small step and then reevaluate, than to take too big a step and end up back were we were in 1.6. I donGÇÖt have the skill with the Forge Gun or the experience with AV grenades to be able to evaluate them.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1850	Posted - 2013.12.16 14:17:00 - [2] - Quote As far as Swarm Launchers vs Dropships, they are only good for shooing a Dropship away from a drop zone, or causing them to crash into buildings. The first match I spawned into after 1.7 I saw a Dropship flying low and slow. I put two swarms into it. It turned around and flew directly over my head, allowing me to get a third volley into it. By the time I had reloaded it was back to full health. Most of the Dropship kills I got were on parked Dropships. Another Swarm Launcher and I did manage to take out a Dropship that was having trouble navigating around a pipe. It could not get away. I did manage to make a few dropships crash into buildings by knocking them around with the Swarms, but for the most part, a Swarm Launcher is only good for preventing a Dropship from landing close by. It takes 3 volleys from a Proto swarm launcher now to take out a turret. They still seem to be effective against unfitted vehicles driven by unskilled drivers.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1869	Posted - 2013.12.16 17:02:00 - [3] - Quote I think Patch 1.7 will always be unofficially known as the World of Tanks patch. I would like CCP to address this situation by applying small AV buffs so that we can slowly narrow in on the sweet spot where balance occurs, rather than over reacting, over buffing, and overshooting the mark. The mechanics are there now for skilled and experienced pilots to be able to deal with AV, even when using militia tanks. But that only factors in if AV is balanced. If AV is too underpowered, a tank operator does not need skills or experience to deal them. And if AV is too overpowered, even with skills and experience a tank operator will struggle, as in 1.6. I am happy that Tank vs Tank battles seem to be more engaging now, and I donGÇÖt disagree that the best counter to a tank should be another tank, but when your team does not have a good tanker on it, there should be alternative methods available for dealing with tanks.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1870	Posted - 2013.12.16 17:20:00 - [4] - Quote As far as speed, I did find a Scout suit to be more effective for getting into position, and heading off a tank at the pass, so to speak. However, they are really difficult to fit, and if any infantry sees you, you are dead. I liked the Scout suit because if you get hit by a tank you are going to die regardless, so you might as well be in the suit that is hardest to hit. ItGÇÖs stealth allowed me to sneak up on tanks, and the speed allowed me to dash in close to toss a flux grenade or attach a few Remote Explosives. The ScoutGÇÖs speed gave me a chance to stay ahead of the turretGÇÖs tracking. However this only worked well in urban or hilly areas were there was cover available, and the tankGÇÖs movement was somewhat restricted. I also tried the Minmatar and Caldari assault suits. They gave me a chance against infantry within SMG range, but I had to use a LAV to get into position when hunting tanks, and the Assault suits were not really fast enough to get in close to plant Remote Explosives. The most fun I had was when I was squadded up with a good tanker and a guy running a Jehad Jeep. The tanker killed 5 tanks, and the Jehad Jeep killed 3 tanks. I got a few assists, but I am not sure how much of a difference I was making.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1873	Posted - 2013.12.16 18:03:00 - [5] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: A huge part of the balance issue right now is militia tanks. Under no circumstances should a virtually free militia tank with no SP invested function even remotely close to a standard tank with a healthy amount of SP invested. They should be paper thin test run machines that give you a feel for tanking, but will be roasted by prototype AV. Right now, free militia tanks shrug off plenty of prototype AV. I'm fine with standard, SP invested tanks doing that. Free tanks for all? Not nearly as much. The difference should be similar to the difference between militia dropsuits and standard dropsuits. I think the bigger difference should come from the skill point investment. I donGÇÖt have a problem with a dedicated tanker ripping it up in a melita tank, but as you say it is a real problem when people with no skill points invested in vehicles can dominate in tanks. I have not looked at the vehicle tree. Can someone post up the significant skills that should make a dedicated tanker better than a no skill tanker? I assume there are base armour and shield skills. How much better are the Complex modules over the Melita modules? Is the gap between militia and Proto wide enough?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2547	Posted - 2014.02.20 15:31:00 - [6] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: A huge part of the balance issue right now is militia tanks. Under no circumstances should a virtually free militia tank with no SP invested function even remotely close to a standard tank with a healthy amount of SP invested. They should be paper thin test run machines that give you a feel for tanking, but will be roasted by prototype AV. Right now, free militia tanks shrug off plenty of prototype AV. I'm fine with standard, SP invested tanks doing that. Free tanks for all? Not nearly as much. The difference should be similar to the difference between militia dropsuits and standard dropsuits. I think the bigger difference should come from the skill point investment. I donGÇÖt have a problem with a dedicated tanker ripping it up in a melita tank, but as you say it is a real problem when people with no skill points invested in vehicles can dominate in tanks. I have not looked at the vehicle tree. Can someone post up the significant skills that should make a dedicated tanker better than a no skill tanker? I assume there are base armour and shield skills. How much better are the Complex modules over the Melita modules? Is the gap between militia and Proto wide enough? There are no skills that increase base tank stats like shield and armour, just skills that reduce PG and CPU costs and cool downs on modules. Also the difference between militia and complex is fitting requirements and cooldown time, not sure about duration. Their was in 1.6. Before 1.7 having Shield and Armour skills maxed gave you an additional 25% base health. They should nerf all vehicle base health by 25% and bring back those skill bonuses. That would not effect dedicated pilots at all, but would make vehicles a lot weaker for people who are not skilled into them. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2552	Posted - 2014.02.20 16:43:00 - [7] - Quote I wrote the original post early in 1.7. The situation has changed somewhat since them. Some of the people spamming Militia tanks got tired of it and went back to playing Infantry, while the rest skilled into tanks and are now running Standard Tanks. I agree that the bigger problem now is the perma hardening achieved by running multiple hardeners in sequence. CLONE117 wrote: the changes ive suggested for hardeners in such is to remove the ability to cycle them. by making it to where if the player has 2 armor hardeners on a vehicle. activating one would activate the other at the same time. they could also be given a side effect. to where these hardeners could slow down the vehicle when active. I like your suggested solution a lot better than the suggestion of only allowing 1 hardener to be equipped. I had suggested a solution to the Hardener stacking issue, but the feedback I got on the idea was that it was too complicated. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2560	Posted - 2014.02.20 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: You're all still pissed you can't solo a tank with hardeners up. Any 1.6 AVGÇÖer who would expect to be able to solo a tank with its hardeners up are likely 1.7 tankers by now. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2575	Posted - 2014.02.21 11:32:00 - [9] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: In addition to your proposed fixes, I believe that swarm launcher missiles need to move a bit faster, so that way they can actually hit dropships, and they can hit tanks before they disappear around a corner. When the Uprising 1.7 Nerfs were being passed out I naively thought the kittens were getting a flight speed boost as part of a rebalance. It made common sense. Silly me for trusting the Devs. Slow flight speed is one of the balancing factors with the Swarm Launcher. It helps the Swarm Launcher not be too powerful. Gives tanks a chance to get away. If you get rid of all the balancing factors, then there would be no grounds to argue for decent damage. This is why I was against the reduction to lock time back in 1.3. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2578	Posted - 2014.02.21 13:26:00 - [10] - Quote ROMULUS H3X wrote: Swarm launchers are light weapons.... I'm sure they need tweaking but I'm getting the impression that some of ya'll think they should be on the same level as Forge Guns... Forge Guns are greatly effective even when there is just one on the field Swarm Launchers should be effective when there is 2 or more on the field, Just they way it is..... I know you want to solo tanks in your light suits but if you are clearly the only Swarmer on your team you shouldn't expect much of your endeavors. A 12% buff to Swarm Missile damage is not going to allow Swarmers to solo a tank unless the Tanker is completely incompetent. But it may be enough to make a tanker have to activate their hardeners, and it may be enough to allow a team of 3 Proto Swarmers to efficiently kill tanks. I agree that Forge Guns are where they should be now. They only have issues with perma hardened tanks. Lets look at the balance considerations with the Forge Gun and the Swarm Launcher (I will underline the clear winner in each category.): Forge Gun (Long range), Swarm Launcher (Medium range) Forge Gun (Charge time), Swarm Launcher (Lock time) Forge Gun (manual Aim), Swarm Launcher (Guided) (Does require manual tracking while locking.) Forge Gun (straight line of fire), Swarm Launcher (can turn to track targets) Forge Gun (can miss), Swarm Launcher (Can hit terrain and not reach target.) Forge Gun (Fast travel time), Swarm Launcher (Slow travel time) Forge Gun (Heavy Suit), Swarm Launcher (Any suit) Forge Gun (Some anti Infantry ability), Swarm Launcher (No anti Infantry ability) Swarm Missiles often impact on hills or buildings, resulting in some or all the missiles not reaching their target. A Tank that knows that Swarms are being fired at it can drive into a depression, over a hill, or behind a building/girders to dramatically reduce or even eliminate incoming Swarm damage. I do think there is one missing component in Swarm Launcher balance. I believe that vehicle pilots should receive lock on warnings: Yellow: GÇ£Locking, Locking, LockingGÇ¥ Orange: GÇ£Hostile LockGÇ¥ Red*: GÇ£Missiles inbound!GÇ¥ Such an early warning system would make balancing Swarm Launchers far easier. It would allow Tank operators to take defensive actions. I also think that Dropships should be equipped with counter measure, such as flairs. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014