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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
77
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Posted - 2013.12.16 07:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well, in Chromosome we had AVers complain tanks were too strong. Then in Uprising they were horrible and tankers complained. Now they are strong and weak. Plus I think they were going for something a little different, the best thing to take out a tank is another tank, next best is a heavy with a forge gun, and last is medium or light suits with AV. Assuming everything is perfectly balanced, that doesn't seem like a terribly bad hierarchy. Tanks being the best to take out tanks makes sense, tanks are designed to do a lot of damage and take a lot of damage, the perfect combo to take out a tank. On the other hand Heavies do almost as much damage as tanks but they don't have the ability to take a lot from tank weaponry (or even some infantry weapons but that's a different problem) so they are the next best thing. Then medium and light suits using swarms do the least damage but are still effective. This would mean tanks can fight tanks in the open but heavies can still kill tanks in roughly the same time as another tank, they just have to use their better mobility to get a positional advantage because they are much more vulnerable to return fire. Right now heavies seem to be in need of more diverse roles, and their descriptions always mention they are the only suit to be able to fight tanks on their own.
As far as a tank being the best counter to a tank there is at least one similar scenario faced by infantry. If you're playing in an all infantry match and you get shot by a sniper and want to kill him you have a few options. You could always run directly at him until you get in range, but they would probably lead to him shooting you until you die or just running before you get close. Or, you could go the long way and use cover or sneak up and ambush the sniper. However, both of those are time consuming and usually contain higher levels of death than just simply switching to a sniper fit of your own and counter-sniping.
Right now tanks are the best thing to kill a tank, but heavies and forge guns HURT, especially with hardeners off. Swarms on the other hand are much more situational, it seems instead of giving medium/light suits the ability to be dedicated AV they left that to the heavies. Now mediums and lights with swarms are more about fighting vehicles on a particular objective than being map-wide. Heavies get an additional role (I think that brings it up to two now?) with the ability to go full AV, and mediums/lights can defend themselves.
Off to bed, let the flaming begin. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
77
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Posted - 2013.12.16 07:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:Well, in Chromosome we had AVers complain tanks were too strong. Then in Uprising they were horrible and tankers complained. Now they are strong and weak. Plus I think they were going for something a little different, the best thing to take out a tank is another tank, next best is a heavy with a forge gun, and last is medium or light suits with AV. Assuming everything is perfectly balanced, that doesn't seem like a terribly bad hierarchy. Tanks being the best to take out tanks makes sense, tanks are designed to do a lot of damage and take a lot of damage, the perfect combo to take out a tank. On the other hand Heavies do almost as much damage as tanks but they don't have the ability to take a lot from tank weaponry (or even some infantry weapons but that's a different problem) so they are the next best thing. Then medium and light suits using swarms do the least damage but are still effective. This would mean tanks can fight tanks in the open but heavies can still kill tanks in roughly the same time as another tank, they just have to use their better mobility to get a positional advantage because they are much more vulnerable to return fire. Right now heavies seem to be in need of more diverse roles, and their descriptions always mention they are the only suit to be able to fight tanks on their own.
As far as a tank being the best counter to a tank there is at least one similar scenario faced by infantry. If you're playing in an all infantry match and you get shot by a sniper and want to kill him you have a few options. You could always run directly at him until you get in range, but they would probably lead to him shooting you until you die or just running before you get close. Or, you could go the long way and use cover or sneak up and ambush the sniper. However, both of those are time consuming and usually contain higher levels of death than just simply switching to a sniper fit of your own and counter-sniping.
Right now tanks are the best thing to kill a tank, but heavies and forge guns HURT, especially with hardeners off. Swarms on the other hand are much more situational, it seems instead of giving medium/light suits the ability to be dedicated AV they left that to the heavies. Now mediums and lights with swarms are more about fighting vehicles on a particular objective than being map-wide. Heavies get an additional role (I think that brings it up to two now?) with the ability to go full AV, and mediums/lights can defend themselves.
Off to bed, let the flaming begin. basically the same logic as OP, to beat rock, you bring in another rock. Paper? Yea it hurts rock, but to actually kill rock with paper you'll need to wait till rock is weak and you'll need 3-4 paper sheets. Yea that sounds balanced. May as well take AV out the game tbh if the best way to take out tanks is with another tank.
Failed to comprehend my post I see. The whole point of the post was that Heavy suits (you know those suits that are supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with vehicles?) can take on a tank single-handedly. Also, by your logic lets take sniper rifles out of the game. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:
Failed to comprehend my post I see. The whole point of the post was that Heavy suits (you know those suits that are supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with vehicles?) can take on a tank single-handedly. Also, by your logic lets take sniper rifles out of the game.
heavy suits take tanks out "single handedly"? hahaha... thanks for the laugh. Made everything you said in your TL;DR post sound like a joke.
Lol someone who has no idea how to use a heavy or a forge gun, made everything you said invalid, thanks for the laugh. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:I'm telling infantry to HTFU. basically saying "I like the easy mode currently, so HTFU"
DOUBLE POST DOUBLE POINTS WOOOOOOOOOOOOT. But seriously, this is the exact attitude of AV after Uprising and before 1.7, so why should tankers not have the same attitude now? |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:
Failed to comprehend my post I see. The whole point of the post was that Heavy suits (you know those suits that are supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with vehicles?) can take on a tank single-handedly. Also, by your logic lets take sniper rifles out of the game.
heavy suits take tanks out "single handedly"? hahaha... thanks for the laugh. Made everything you said in your TL;DR post sound like a joke. Lol someone who has no idea how to use a heavy or a forge gun, made everything you said invalid, thanks for the laugh. I'm sorry, but unless the tanker is a complete pleb, there's NOWAY a heavy can solo a tank now.
Head over to the Rookie Training Grounds, find a really good forge gunner, ask for some tips, and come back after you have been in a proto tank that was on the receiving end of a fully proto maxed out assault forge. Those things hurt like hell and if the only thing you can counter with is that the tank can leave too fast then that would mean only one part of tanks is broken, not the whole thing. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xender17 wrote:Nobody understands or is accepting that you actually have to play smart to kill a tank. When a sniper continuously kills your team do you just use the same fitting and go looking for wherever he could possibly be? No. You grab a sniper rifle and counter him. This game isn't rock paper scissors anymore.
Get your logic out of here, AV players' heads are about to explode.
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:
Head over to the Rookie Training Grounds, find a really good forge gunner, ask for some tips, and come back after you have been in a proto tank that was on the receiving end of a fully proto maxed out assault forge. Those things hurt like hell and if the only thing you can counter with is that the tank can leave too fast then that would mean only one part of tanks is broken, not the whole thing.
If you're a tanker and you got solo'd by a FG that you can see, you're a noob. Get better
If you're a FG that a tank can see you're a noob. Get better. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
78
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:
Head over to the Rookie Training Grounds, find a really good forge gunner, ask for some tips, and come back after you have been in a proto tank that was on the receiving end of a fully proto maxed out assault forge. Those things hurt like hell and if the only thing you can counter with is that the tank can leave too fast then that would mean only one part of tanks is broken, not the whole thing.
If you're a tanker and you got solo'd by a FG that you can see, you're a noob. Get better If you're a FG that a tank can see you're a noob. Get better. I've taken out the best tankers in this game sir, I've seen them all since Chromosome 8v8 scrims. Noobs die in a heart beat, good tankers know their limits.
And yet you don't know that the best weapon a FG has is concealment? Either that or the trolling is strong with this one. Also, I don't think we've ever faced off, maybe we could arrange something? |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
82
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Too many quotes, don't feel like dealing with the code.
"If you're a tanker and you got solo'd by a FG that you can see, you're a noob." That's what you said and I can only take it to mean that you think a hidden FGer is a dangerous and effective AV weapon, which is what I was trying to say, and what you were disagreeing with. Either you disagree, which your recent post would indicate otherwise, or we are actually arguing while agreeing. Either way, FGers right now are effective if used properly, if standing in the open they get slaughtered, they can dish a lot of damage but they can't out tank a tank.
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
82
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Posted - 2013.12.16 08:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
echo47 wrote:double post
Nice. |
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
82
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Posted - 2013.12.16 17:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:Speaker, please pick up a little what were putting down:
1. You have no credibility as you are a scrub. 2. No one respects you 3. Your ideas are bad, and you should feel bad. 4. Dust like EVE is Risk vs ISK, current model does not support this 4a. Militia tank cost is too low 4b. Militia tank power is to high in respect to AV (needing proto AV for MLT tanks) 4c. Av is meant to be the counter, not a deterrent 4d. Destroying tanks is the role and purpose behind AV 4e. AV is awarded based on performance, without kills there is no purpose 5. Balance does not equal rock smashing paper and scissors while only taken out by rock 6. Realism has no place in Dust, and even if it did you'd be wrong 6a. See Javelin, AT, and a sundry other variety of Anti tank weaponry (swarms) 6b. See Railguns (currently installations) made for destroying air craft carriers 6c. See Swingfire missiles, act like swarms do in real life and can perform an aerial 90 degree turn* 7. If you can only play tanks to get kills its obvious why you are so vocal, see points 1 and 2. Get good. 8. You are only making yourself worse with these threads whining about REs and suicide LAVs, if AV was where it should be you would not see infantry going to such extremes to destroy tanks.
I think that about covers it! King checkmate, atiim, etc. thoughts? Things I missed?
*Thanks for the info Needless!
I've never ran into speaker in-game so I can't comment on the first two.
But, I have been playing since open beta and I remember when AV was complaining about tanks then too, and I said "sure in the spirit of good gameplay I guess tanks could use a slight nerf, but wouldn't it be better to just introduce ADV and PROTO tanks and make it so PROTO > ADV > STD so PROTO AV can wreck face vs ADV or STD tanks." Then some more people complained and CCP made Uprising, now I don't blame AV users for all the bad stuff in Uprising, CCP should have been able to spot the problems a mile away. But honestly, half the people calling tanks easy mode now are the same ones who screamed "So what?" when I tried to point out why AV was clearly OP pre 1.7 Uprising.
As far as militia tanks, I think they are priced pretty good about now. I can fit one that costs more than most proto suits, yet it's still cheap enough for new players to buy if they want to go tank or just try it out. I also think militia tanks are working exactly as intended by CCP, you have to look at the system they said they were making for the new vehicles "waves of opportunity." In it, militia tanks will be very strong for a short period of time, about 25-35 seconds, and then they will be incredibly weak for a longer period of time, in the case of militia modules about 70-90 seconds. Any tank without hardeners on is paper thin, the only thing I can agree with AV with is that the fuel injectors can still make tanks move very fast. It's interesting though because I had fuel injectors on all my tanks pre 1.7 Uprising, and people still complained even though it was an absolute necessity then to survive. Now though, with the base acceleration and handling (except turning, esp. armor tanks which have exactly the same 180 degree turn time as The Vatican) buffed I think we could change the fuel injectors, so instead of top speed they just give a bonus to acceleration. Or possibly remove them completely and replace them with something else, though, if we give up our fuel injectors completely you have to give up Jihad Jeeps.
Long Post is Long, time to finish. As far as 4c through 6c, most real life anti-tank doctrines have either aircraft or tanks as the primary vehicle killers, and infantry AT weapons are used as a deterrent, although that may just be because of how most of these wars are fought now. 4e is something which before 1.7 there was not a lot of need for, AV was ridiculously powerful and only lazy AVers didn't get kills and wp. Now, though I can see where you are coming from with that and vehicle damage WPs wouldn't be too bad as long as they aren't ridiculous. 5, again this goes back to the basic design of HAVs in dust, how do you make a vehicle designed to kill other vehicles, and still make it not be it's own counter. I already talked about infantry situations that are comparable. 6, agreed this is a game no place for realism, disagree on how it would be wrong though, in RL tanks are the best AT weapons, if dust were realistic that would be the case here too. 6a, a sundry of other at weapons? Try about 3 that are actually effective currently and can be shoulder launched. Hard kill counters are starting to pop up and can make almost every previous shoulder launched AT weapon obsolete. 6b, I don't see where anyone was talking about railguns but mentioning they can destroy carriers just works against your case. 6c, some people don't seem to realize that this missile is wire guided, meaning the operator has to guide it all the way there, and that the only way for it to do a 90 degree turn is have a remote station set up already. Also it was only used by vehicles so it really isn't infantry AV. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
96
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Posted - 2013.12.17 22:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:CCP you are really ******* this up. Now is not the time to lose more players. Just in my corp and alliance alone guys are pissed like i have never experienced. People been away for a while coming back , they do a few matches and just rage quit.
The only way to kill a tank is to go balls to the wall and use the best gear .....you know how much isk i have lost fighting tanks.
Lemme get constructive here ..the way i see it you have a few options:
- Limit tanks per match. - Give the AV guys more options ..like spikes to slow tanks down not stop them or webbing grenades but then we need more grenade slots. - Higher damage with swarm launchers at close range ....decreasing with range. -Swarms carrying more ammo per clip.
This crap you pulledwith tanks needs urgent fixing...lol at Tanks 514.
I bet their fix takes as long as it did when the AV was the OP topic and tanks needed a buff. Don't worry it's only 6 builds or so. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
98
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Posted - 2013.12.17 23:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Commander Tzu wrote: I bet their fix takes as long as it did when the AV was the OP topic and tanks needed a buff. Don't worry it's only 6 builds or so.
So your butthurt and salty? I'll put you on the "special" list, right next to Spkr4TheDead and Tankahiro. Also, there was no fix needed with 1.6. If you actually stopped tickling your willy and turned your hardners on for once, 1 guy with PRO AV wasn't a problem.
DO YOU EVEN MATHS BRO?! |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
98
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Posted - 2013.12.17 23:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Atiim wrote:Commander Tzu wrote: I bet their fix takes as long as it did when the AV was the OP topic and tanks needed a buff. Don't worry it's only 6 builds or so.
So your butthurt and salty? I'll put you on the "special" list, right next to Spkr4TheDead and Tankahiro. Also, there was no fix needed with 1.6. If you actually stopped tickling your willy and turned your hardners on for once, 1 guy with PRO AV wasn't a problem. Proto Av was pretty lethal it was hysterically easy to destroy tanks and tank vs tank the gunnlogi was a joke compared to the madrugar. I love the elitist attitude that tankers have put on throughout this games development. If you were just getting into tanking in 1.6 you couldn't expect to be any good with your tank until maybe a year or year and a half of gaming. You would have been losing so much isk as a tanker newbie that some people would have been checking themselves into a mental hospital from all the rage quitting. Even with 10 million Sp if you don't have a good corp or are surrounded by good players you were that unfortunate guy. For that unfortunate fellow things were clearly one sided CCP has made tanking much easier and more affordable than ever. Now vets are here to beat their chests about how good they were. To me its just silly if you are an experienced tanker from well before 1.6 then you have to admit that for new players tanking was just not engaging required lots of isk and sp making it the most mentally and physically frustrating path to take. To new players tanking successfully must have been next to impossible.
True, I been tanking since open beta and I can tell you I had it a million times easier than the newberries coming in during Uprising.
Lol @ Atiim who spent his every waking hour before 1.7 trying to convince people he was a tanker, just to have his tank get blown sky high when he actually called it in because he had no idea what he was doing (and those proto AV didn't help did they?). Honestly I joined up in-game with him once and when he told me the fit on his tank it hurt, it was so bad. Fact is, you AV "radicals" have more weight on the forums than tankers do, so you got your paradise in Uprising before 1.7. Now it's our turn, and soon it'll be the Heavies' turn, and maybe after that we'll give the game to the installations, after all they have been on the losing end longer than any of us. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
98
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Posted - 2013.12.17 23:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:I find it funny that 'vets' believe you need to quintuple stack hardeners to survive 3 shots from the Machine Gun Swarmies. And then they believe it's 'all right' that only those with 7-25 mill SP into tanks just to not die from MILITIA swarms.
Just to be clear, I never said that. I would love for MLT tanks to be viable for new tankers to learn the game. I just said that before the 1.7 build it was impossible because of how strong AV was; MLT forge guns did the same damage as ADV rail turrets lol. I fully support bringing the game to a point where MLT of equal skill and compete against STD and ADV of lesser skill (not SP). Actually, my little brother tried to tank in Uprising with STD tanks and got totally and completely annihilated by AV, now he is actually having fun in his tanks (but if he keeps smack talking my fits I may just have to show him what a difference lots of SP can make =P). |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
99
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Posted - 2013.12.18 01:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Happy Violentime wrote:Tankers are scum. I'd rather not even be in the same game mode as them.
CoD's that way -------->
or <----- that way, I'm not sure how directions work on the internetz |
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