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[Feedback] Rifles and SMG need a 30% nerf.

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KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 292	Posted - 2013.12.15 17:51:00 - [1] - Quote We keep seeing these "TTK" issue threads, but I think it's time to stop dancing around the issue. The time to kill of most weapons is fine, with the exception of the rifles and the SMG. The high damage output of these weapons is negating the following: - CQC tactics: Strafing, jumping, and moving in general is a moot point, if you get shot first, you are probably dead. - Fittings: Most fits are now glass cannons, with most of the remainder being stacked HP. Variety in viable fittings is dwindling. - Going for cover: If you are in the open, you are dead, there is no running once you start taking damage. - Scouts: Speed tanking is no longer viable due to some of the above reasons. It's very hard to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee anymore. - Non Rifle Weapons: The non hitscan weapons are now relegated to utter novelties. The Rail Rifle has eaten the Laser's lunch, and most engagements are over before the second Mass Driver round can travel to a target. Or to further distill it down, the rifles and SMG are interfering with: - Core FPS mechanics - Unique Dust Mechanics Which means it is affecting almost the entire game. Reducing the damage by 30% is a good start to addressing what these incredibly high DPS weapons have done to Dust.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 292	Posted - 2013.12.15 18:24:00 - [2] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: How would you compare the Rifle and SMGs (apparent top killers according to the post) to the tanks, grenades, REs and Forge Guns that also kill by the dozens in many of the matches I play? Every weapon does relatively equal damage over the time to fire for a second or charge and fire. My personal belief is that a 30-100% overall HP buff is needed to both suits and armor plate and shield extenders. This would allow a relatively short TTK while still giving us all an added buffer of HP to duck around a corner tactically and allow some to regenerate. 425dps from an AR means for most suits (500 HP average) that less than 2 seconds is needed to kill someone, doubling up the average HP to around 1000hp would mean that most people would take around 3 seconds to kill which really is quite a short TTK still, allowing CCP to keep a short TTK and giving us all a better fighting chance. Aside from the Forge's infantry sniping ability, the other weapons need some attention, but are decently balanced. But you are absolutely incorrect in your statement that "every weapon does relatively equal damage over time". That's mathematically untrue. The rifles outclass almost everything. But let's go back to your HP based proposal. The core issue with it is that it effectively nerfs EVERY weapon in the game, and not every weapon in the game needs a nerf. Let's take the mass driver for example: There are suits in the game that I can unload a whole clip on and will survive, unless I score at least 50% direct hits. Keep in mind that the MD fires one shot per second, so that's 6 seconds plus round travel time. However the Rifles can down a suit in under 2 seconds. What happens to the MD's effectiveness if suddenly everyone had 30% more HP? It means the MD user now has to suffer one of the longest reloads in the game to kill anyone. Sweeping nerfs like that are a bad idea, and targeted nerfs are a better solution.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2013.12.15 19:07:00 - [3] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: I think that 30% is too large a reduction. 5% to 10% would be an ideal staring point for sustained fire weapons. Alpha Damage weapons (snipper riffles, shotguns, etc.) seem fine as is. This is coming from a Scout who uses only Submachine Guns. 10% doesn't do much to improve the situation. The DPS of the base combat rifle is 640. 10% reduces it to 576 DPS Which drops most suits in under 2 seconds. 30% reduces it to 448. Which will STILL drop most suits in under 2 seconds. A 30% nerf really isn't that much in terms of time to kill, and will actually help make glass cannon fits into glass cannons compared to suits that stack HP.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 295	Posted - 2013.12.15 19:22:00 - [4] - Quote Jooki Chewaka wrote: 1. I dont thing SMG needs any nerf, it has a limited range, and its rof is awesome, hence it damage. 2. The problem with speedtanking is more an Autoaim issue than weapons being OP. 3. About the rail rifle... its damage seems a lil' bit high than it should, sometimes i get killed with my heavy suit at the speeds of Duvolle rifle, and when i look, it is a normal Rail Rifle, second issue i see with it, Laser Rifle its only effective at long ranges, so should be the Rail Rifle, but it has a similar range than a laser rifle but it kicks ass at all ranges, this seems unfair to me, CCP said that it was gonna be a long range weapon... well, it is, and a short range too... The SMG nerf may not be needed, or at least not as strong as a 30% hit. However I've been squadding with some people that use it as their PRIMARY weapon, and it wrecks effectively and quickly. You're right about the auto aim being a part of the problem, but there are plenty of threads highlighting that. I still think that even with aim assist gone, the rifle damage needs to be toned down, as there are still plenty of skilled people in this game that can make every shot count.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 295	Posted - 2013.12.15 19:49:00 - [5] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: I don't think it should be a straight dmg nerf I would like a rof nerf to all weapons alpha damage weapons forge sniper shotty plc would be unaffected Wed still have the same damage per clip so it wouldn't be 7566 reloads per firefight All rifles and smg would be nerfed Scr and other semi auto weapons would also have max shots per second on them The upside to a Damage nerf vs a RoF nerf for the rifles is that it will increase the importance of the sidearm, which will in turn further dissuade people from using Logi suits as Assault suits.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 296	Posted - 2013.12.15 20:54:00 - [6] - Quote Xaviah Reaper wrote: fixing this requires a hp buff to suits by around 110%, and a buff to explosive damage, shotguns, and sniper rifles vs infantry to keep it balanced :P should have no affect on vehicles though as vehicle damage output vs infantry needs to be maintained Dude, what you're saying is instead of nerfing 4 weapons by 30%, we should change the entire rest of the game around the current damage of those 4 weapons. That's a lot of changes to address 4 overpowered weapons. Meeko Fent wrote: While for the most part, I agree something must be done, but also disagree with your high percentage of nerfing Earlier I did some math to show that a 30% damage reduction would yield a DPS of 448 for the Combat Rifle. That is for the standard Combat Rifle with zero skills and zero damage mods. 30% is very reasonable. Anything less is pointless. Meeko Fent wrote: the laser is a useless pile of **** that should not be taken into account. Every light weapon should be viable on the battlefield. The Laser was a niche weapon before, but that niche has been totally taken and superseded by the Rail Rifle. In addition to killing far too quickly, it also effectively eliminates a weapon from the game. That is a problem for battlefield variety and it should 100% be taken into account.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 300	Posted - 2013.12.16 18:03:00 - [7] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Agreed. What do you guys think if we took Dmos out the gamw? I don't think we should outright remove them, as they add to fitting variety. If you want to give up your HP or support mods to do high damage, great. But someone fitting their suit for 100% tank should also have a survivability advantage on the field, which is currently not the case. It's a careful balancing act. The base damage of a weapon should be enough to kill a suit with one clip. Skills and Mods should be able to improve that, but not so much that people can lose 1000 hp in a second. If we bring down the rifles 30%, people will be able to use modules to overcome that. Bringing back the example of the combat rifle, that'll bring the damage up from my proposed base of 448 DPS back to ~640 DPS(no skills, just damage mods). If the community thinks that's to much of a boost, then maybe the damage mods can be changed to do 2%, 3% and 5%?
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 303	Posted - 2013.12.20 18:11:00 - [8] - Quote This is still a problem, and while the HMG buff is appreciated, it looks like CCP is closing the damage gap in the wrong direction. We need less damage from the majority of the hitscan weapons, not more.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 332	Posted - 2013.12.22 19:46:00 - [9] - Quote Due to the Rifles obsoleting almost every non-rifle weapon in the game, other weapon users are asking for a Buff to Lasers, Mass Drivers, Plasma Cannons and the other orphans. This is NOT the solution. The HMG buff was the first step towards a race to the bottom for the TTK in this game. No more Buffs to compensate for the gameplay breaking Rifles. Nerf the Rifles. They are the root of the "TTK" issue.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 340	Posted - 2013.12.25 23:03:00 - [10] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: No. The SMG is fine. This might be the case, especially given the range.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 341	Posted - 2013.12.26 03:43:00 - [11] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: - CQC tactics: Strafing, jumping, and moving in general is a moot point, if you get shot first, you are probably dead. Chromosome scouts where impossible to kill due to bunny hopping and super strafe add this to a KB/M user and you have Godmode. This game doesn't have bunny hopping. Bunny hopping is a glitch that is very specific to some Quake derived games. I don't know what you mean by "super strafing" either. I think you just want to shoot stationary targets? Quote: - Fittings: Most fits are now glass cannons, with most of the remainder being stacked HP. Variety in viable fittings is dwindling. Remove damage modifiers, or give them a penalty. I don't think they should be removed outright, and I think they already have a damage penalty. The problem is that the BASE damage before skills of every rifle is just way too high. Quote: - Going for cover: If you are in the open, you are dead, there is no running once you start taking damage. This happens in every single FPS, I don't know a single FPS where you can run through an open field, or an open space even if its just a short sprint stretch where being completely open to fire does NOT leave you vulnerable. This (IMO) is working as intended. Not every single FPS, no. There are games where a gun battle can go on for more than 2 seconds. It is wiser to stick to cover, but sometimes you have to move from cover. With the current rifle damage (and the aim assist) it becomes an instant death sentence if any decent player has line of sight on you. I've played shooters where someone can get the drop on you and you can still come out ahead thanks to superior footwork and gungame, and I think it's more fun that way. That can almost never happen in Dust, and I think the core gameplay and the fittings metagame is suffering for it. Quote: - Non Rifle Weapons: The non hitscan weapons are now relegated to utter novelties. The Rail Rifle has eaten the Laser's lunch, and most engagements are over before the second Mass Driver round can travel to a target. Laser rifle obviously needs a damage and range buff, it should perform like the rail rifle does in long range but perform like a sniper rifle in short range. The rail rifle should have its range toned down just above the scrambler rifle, and have its CQC power greatly nerfed. As for the shotgun and the Mass driver, the shotgun is very powerful int he right hands but the mass driver is a different story, it can be a very OP or UP weapon and I can't really suggest how to fix it. That's the thing, everyone is so used to the high damage environment that the "obvious" fix is to just buff everything else as well. The game is a BLAP-fest regardless if you have 300hp or 1.2k hp, and that's a problem. And the solution isn't to bring the "underpowered" weapons up to par.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 341	Posted - 2013.12.26 04:12:00 - [12] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Obviously although agreeing with me about my assessment on what needs to happen (more HP) you disagree with me about the weapons, I am fine with that but urge you to look closer at the type of environment each weapon excels in. They are not all designed to be open/closed spaces weapons and act accordingly. The thing is that there is no reason to use anything but an rifle now. The niches of things non-rifle are now erased by rifles. CQC? Combat Rifle does better than the shotgun. Mid-Long Range? Rail Rifle outclasses the Laser. Getting guys out from cover? Grenades do that just fine, no need for the lolcannon or mass driver. (side note, every smart player at this point knows that when I start popping them behind cover, they can just poke their head out and blap me before my 2nd round hits them.) As far as the HP thing, that is one way to solve the problem, but canon-wise it's risky business, since a Rifter has a base HP of 1250. I'd rather go the damage reduction route than to have dropsuits with more HP than spaceships.

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