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[Request] Respec Option

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Ecshon Autorez Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 171	Posted - 2013.12.15 00:49:00 - [1] - Quote Blah blah actually read this before replying. Give everyone the option to respec whenever they want but here are the details: Can only respec skills that are level 1 Can only respec within X amount of time, after that it's permanent (I'd say between 12-24 hours from when you leveled it) After you have played X number of battles that skill is permanent (I'd say 10 battles, that should be enough for someone to decide if they like it or not) The skill must be the newest thing that you leveled (so you can't skill into Rail Rifle Operation 1 then Repair Tool Operation 1 and respec Rail Rifle Operation) Cannot respec the same skill more than once in X amount of time (somewhere between a week and 3 months I'd say) (So that you can try something, decide you don't like it, respec, it gets changed, you can try it again but people can't just spam respec on FLOTM so that when it stops being FLOTM they can switch to the new one) (maybe) Can only respec one skill every X amount of time. (I'd say 24 hours from the time you choose to respec the first skill)
Leo Look Shadow Company HQ 29	Posted - 2013.12.15 01:04:00 - [2] - Quote can be made a lot more easy 1. everyone gets a button that respect all there skills 2. this button can only be used ether once every 6 months or once a year (I think ccp would make it once a year going by what is done in eve) 3. there is no respects between this time unless unless ccp dose it like that just did in 1.7
Lonegnr Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 6	Posted - 2013.12.15 01:51:00 - [3] - Quote Ecshon Autorez wrote: Can only respec skills that are level 1 You made your own idea kinda pointless. The sp commitment just isn't there to justify making this feature then limiting it to lvl 1 skills. I'd rather have full respec for Aurum option. Keeps it's use low since it costs $$$, lets us respec in a meaningful way, and CCP stands to gain, all win win.
Direct Threat Pradox One Proficiency V. 0	Posted - 2013.12.15 02:01:00 - [4] - Quote Or just let us pay for it. **** i would spend $20 on this. `DT
Ecshon Autorez Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 171	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:24:00 - [5] - Quote Lonegnr wrote: Ecshon Autorez wrote: Can only respec skills that are level 1 You made your own idea kinda pointless. The sp commitment just isn't there to justify making this feature then limiting it to lvl 1 skills. I'd rather have full respec for Aurum option. Keeps it's use low since it costs $$$, lets us respec in a meaningful way, and CCP stands to gain, all win win. Not meant to be a "oh this stuff sucks now, lemme respec and go into something else." button Meant to be a "oh I tried this out and I don't like it" or "oops wrong skill, I forgot I was saving for something else."
Cosgar ParagonX 8708	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:43:00 - [6] - Quote Leo Look wrote: can be made a lot more easy 1. everyone gets a button that respect all there skills 2. this button can only be used ether once every 6 months or once a year (I think ccp would make it once a year going by what is done in eve) 3. there is no respects between this time unless unless ccp dose it like that just did in 1.7 4. must pay 25% of lifetime SP for a full respec I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Lonegnr Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 6	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:47:00 - [7] - Quote Ecshon Autorez wrote: [quote=Lonegnr] Not meant to be a "oh this stuff sucks now, lemme respec and go into something else." button Meant to be a "oh I tried this out and I don't like it" or "oops wrong skill, I forgot I was saving for something else." Except that's exactly what it'll be intended to be if it ever gets implemented; Easy $$$ at risk otherwise. Oh you tried this and you didn't like it? Good thing lvl 1 training sp costs are so long, who cares. Oh, wrong skill? Maybe you'll pay attention next time. lol.
Lonegnr Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 6	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:48:00 - [8] - Quote Lonegnr wrote: Ecshon Autorez wrote: [quote=Lonegnr] Not meant to be a "oh this stuff sucks now, lemme respec and go into something else." button Meant to be a "oh I tried this out and I don't like it" or "oops wrong skill, I forgot I was saving for something else." Except that's exactly what it'll be intended to be if it ever gets implemented; Easy $$$ at risk otherwise. Oh you tried this and you didn't like it? Good thing lvl 1 training sp costs are so low, who cares. Oh, wrong skill? Maybe you'll pay attention next time. lol.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 488	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:53:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Leo Look wrote: can be made a lot more easy 1. everyone gets a button that respect all there skills 2. this button can only be used ether once every 6 months or once a year (I think ccp would make it once a year going by what is done in eve) 3. there is no respects between this time unless unless ccp dose it like that just did in 1.7 4. must pay 25% of lifetime SP for a full respec If we are speaking to a re-occurring respec option I feel the 25% is to great. 10% is damaging but also low enough to pay for. For some people that is no more than a week of play. For vets its possible to have a few weeks play to months, depending on current points of course. If we are speaking the the respec that should happen regardless because of all the changes that are taking place and that will take place in the future - it should cost nothing and should come after they fix the skill tree and come out with all the suits. Then implement a strategy for free and one for pay - in my opinion.
Talos Vagheitan 290	Posted - 2013.12.15 09:07:00 - [10] - Quote The only time a respec would be acceptable (besides major gameplay changes) would be upon graduating the academy. Who cares what some sniper has to say

Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1262	Posted - 2013.12.15 11:22:00 - [11] - Quote So you want a respec option for something about 18k SP?
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1262	Posted - 2013.12.15 11:27:00 - [12] - Quote Lonegnr wrote: Ecshon Autorez wrote: Can only respec skills that are level 1 You made your own idea kinda pointless. The sp commitment just isn't there to justify making this feature then limiting it to lvl 1 skills. I'd rather have full respec for Aurum option. Keeps it's use low since it costs $$$, lets us respec in a meaningful way, and CCP stands to gain, all win win. So you can spec into the fitting of the month all the time? How about no? And i end up asking this in every respec thread and nobody ever gives me an answer: why? You get unlimited sp. You can spec everything. With the new lp store you only need advanced level to use proto gear... why do you still think there should be a respec? Just save your sp and use the sp events to get what you want. Period. I mean it isn't really that hard to spec something new and you might find out that you want that old skill anyways.
Jooki Chewaka Stalking Wolfpack 40	Posted - 2013.12.15 14:27:00 - [13] - Quote not gonna happen, ppl has asked for respect for 10 years on eve... See you from orbit
Lonegnr Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 7	Posted - 2013.12.15 15:07:00 - [14] - Quote TL;DR at bottom. Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: So you can spec into the fitting of the month all the time? How about no? Sure, why not? Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: And i end up asking this in every respec thread and nobody ever gives me an answer: why? It's being a bit of a pragmatist. It's a viable source of revenue for a very niche (read, failing) game, that gives both CCP and players what they want. The people who don't like this idea tend to be the people that don't intend to pay, and like to pretend Free-2-Play actually means Free 2 Play. Unfortunately, it doesn't; if it did we'd simply call it 'free'. Just like every other F2P on the map: you pay more, you get more. Feel free to answer my previous question with something that doesn't boil down to "because it's unfair to the people playing for free." Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: You get unlimited sp. You can spec everything...... why do you still think there should be a respec? Just save your sp and use the sp events to get what you want. Period. I mean it isn't really that hard to spec something new and you might find out that you want that old skill anyways. Yea, you get unlimited sp, with an unlimited amount of time spent playing the game. Are you an Eve player by chance? I'll assume you aren't. CCP used to release quarterly reports with loads of info about the game and in one of the reports they wrote about player retention; it's not as long as you may think. I don't remember the exact number, but it was in the ballpark of 6-7 months. Why am I bringing that up? Because Dust essentially plays out like Eve in its pvp aspect, except there isn't a sandbox and the game is all PvP. Logic dictates overall population will be lower for Dust because it caters to an even more specific taste (solely-pvp based). Not only that, but unlike Eve Online you can't easily avoid being stomped on; Eve Online gives you several alternatives to PvP while you train skills, where as Dust is the same repetitive PvP over and over again; I'd argue retention will also be lower. To quote from a great post on these forums, "The RPG EffectGäó, or - Why it sucks to be the new guy," Brokerib wrote: Partial Effectiveness To run a full Advanced setup with no frills will come in at around 4Mil SP, assuming you know how to fit, what skills to choose, and what weapons you want to be proficient in. This works out to about 2 months play (less with boosters) where you are capping out SP every week. Advanced level skills and modules should allow a reasonable player to be partially efficient when compared to proto skilled/equipped players.... Full Effectiveness To run a basic Proto setup with appropriate supporting skills, modules and fittings, you need 10-12Mil SP, depending on the suit and weapons chosen. With passive SP gain, daily bonus and weekly capping, this will take 5 to 7 months. Where does that leave us? Do we still have unlimited skills as you said we do? No, we don't. All players leave once they've grown bored or sick of the game. Considering Dust 514 is essentially still in early beta; bad performance, unfinished content, unfinished gameplay mechanics, etc, etc, etc..... again feel free to lower potential retention. This leaves the average player a small pool of SP to work with, and given Brokerib's #s, limited options. What was I ranting on about again? Oh right, respecs. You need to find ways to keep your players. Increase retention. Increase player satisfaction. Obviously you can do this by improving the game (a real release would be great!) but given their current development pace I'm just gonna go ahead and throw that option out the window. So what can they do? Well, they can offer respecs. Let people jump into the flavor of the month, or whatever spec they want: 1) They'll have to pay for it, 2) The average player won't even have that much SP to shift around, 3) Hilariously enough many will be happy to pay. Is this a suitable measure for the game? In CCP's eyes, lucky for you, probably not. Skill wise I get the feeling they intend it should play out just like Eve; you have to invest several months before you become effective at something like PvP. Except that in Eve players can at least occupy themselves with PvE content while they wait and/or choose the pvp they jump into. That isn't the case in Dust. Even if they want to maintain the same play models, Dust is a F2P where as Eve Online is not, and because of that they will have to adapt if they want a more successful game. I'll also note that even Eve Online has something similar to a respec only insanely better; The Character Bazaar. Got Isk? PLEX? Cash? Well come on down! and BUY a new character for your account, fully trained in whatever skills you like from another player (market availability may vary). Would this help at all? Yea, it would, there's plenty of people willing to throw some cash at the Eve Universe (refer to Eve's PLEX market for verification of this). It gives people a potential reason to stay by expanding their options, and CCP sees more revenue (which is always a good motivator for further/quicker improvement). Does it brake the game? No; the people doing this would mostly be those who have less SP to begin with. You may see more flavor of the month characters running around, but this is easily countered by better balancing of each content update. Anyone with loads of SP doing it is likely to have been competitive without the respec anyway. But it'll give players unfair advantages! No, it doesn't, and even if it did, no one has ever contended the Eve universe was a fair one. Most if not all interactions between players on Eve Online revolve around leveraging your advantages. Would seem only fitting to maintain that here. TL; DR: It gives players a reason to keep playing and helps CCP fund further development.
Lonegnr Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 7	Posted - 2013.12.15 15:10:00 - [15] - Quote Lonegnr wrote: WALL OF TEXT RAWR Would also like to note, that I'm not a fan of the idea of respecs personally, but that in no way means it's not a viable option for the game.
Draco Cerberus Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 602	Posted - 2013.12.15 15:57:00 - [16] - Quote Lonegnr wrote: Lonegnr wrote: WALL OF TEXT RAWR Would also like to note, that I'm not a fan of the idea of respecs personally, but that in no way means it's not a viable option for the game. I'm also not necessarily advocating for a full respec in exchange for aurum option, but rather the possibility of a respec in some way, shape, or form that helps keep people interested and thus the game alive(-ish). I agree, and am not a fan of respecs myself as it is slightly off to do in New Eden. On the other hand with the inclusion of more and more racial weaponry, suits and vehicles I think CCP would be making a mistake if they didn't offer once more a Respec option when all these things were in place. This game is still Beta until all major features are implemented IMO, and with that there will be constant balancing, restructuring and redesign to the point where one class or weapon or the other may just not be right for a person anymore, and rather than forcing additional time skilling the new stuff, it would be great for a PAID for respec option to be in place through the market, with no loss of SP. It's not like the merc with 40mil SP wants to lose 4 mil SP to fix a 2 Mil SP problem, or a merc with 5 mil SP can afford to lose 500,000 SP/1,250,000 SP on a respec because he chose poorly. At the moment with no market for p2p sales we have already a huge penalty to respecs, the fact that all our asset purchases will be for naught if we cannot use them. LogiGod earns his pips
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1087	Posted - 2013.12.15 18:12:00 - [17] - Quote Couple things: Lonegnr wrote: Wall o' text [...] 1)very niche (read, failing) game, 2)that gives both CCP 3)and players what they want. 4)The people who don't like this idea tend to be the people that don't intend to pay[...]5)Just like every other F2P on the map: you pay more, you get more. Niche != failing. Dusts numbers are not that bad compared to other f2p games in the genre. Also, not an argument even it true. More on that later. Not all players want respecs. It's just oh so easy to make a thread about it without searching for existing ones first. . People are tired of this topic and repeating themselves dozens of times. This does not mean that there is a general consensus to the pro side, far from it i'd argue. You cannot know this and it's also irelevant. Characterizing nay-sayers as "cheap" is no argument for respecs; or anything really. Doesn't mean that they have to offer something that bypasses game mechanics. Purely cosmetic models tend to work amazingly well (e.g. lol, dota2, tf2, poe). No reason to offer respecs over anything else. Lonegnr wrote: 1)[...]unlimited sp, with an unlimited amount of time[...]6-7 months[...] 2) [Dust is purely PVP without escape] Interesting but irelevant i'm afraid. What does the retention rate of another game have to do with this one's skillsystem? The point is that unlike other games' systems the tree is never ever locking you out of anything. That's in part why both games get away without such a function. All of this is completely true. No objection here. That means we need PvE right? 'cause respecs will not help with any of this since affected players have no respeccable SP to begin with. Lonegnr wrote: 1)Do we still have unlimited skills as you said we do? No, we don't. 2) All players leave once they've grown bored or sick of the game.Considering Dust 514 is essentially still in early beta[...] Semantics. There's more skills/SP that can realistically be skilled into (around 8 years fully boosted and always capped. Actually more by now). This is by design. So you list a number of legitimate concerns that each would greatly improve the game and player retention, yet what you chose to argue for is respecs? Respecs do not solve any of these. Doing 3% more damage will not make 13fps any more bearable: PC will remain unplayable wether you're in a tank or a dropship. I don't see how that does any good to long term player retention. Lonegnr wrote: [...]A)given their current development pace I'm just gonna go ahead and throw that option [of improving the game] out the window.Well, they can offer respecs. Let people jump into the flavor of the month, or whatever spec they want: 1) They'll have to pay for it, 2) The average player won't even have that much SP to shift around, 3) Hilariously enough many will be happy to pay. A) I can't see how anyone can have this perception and still see any reason to play the game. Anyway. I'm not the only one who doesn't share this notion so, no, don't throw the "devs be devin'" option out if you please, thank you. Go on... Which is exactly why respecs will do none of the things everyone hopes they'd do: New players don't have the SP to make use of respecs to begin with. That kills the money argument for this segment, and the NPR argument singlehandedly. New players, by and large, will not profit from paid respecs, quite to the contratry. Currently, balancing and new gear comes with an SP cost to stay adapted. This means that maintaining proto can be quite costly for vets. Maintaining STD/ADV is easy, even for newer players. Balance changes lead to less gear discrepancy. With respecs: Respec 50m SP => spec just 12m (as per your quoted segment) into current fotm => spec into another when something changes again => and again, and again...The older your character, the more usefull respecs get. Stomping just made easier. Same with the retention argument. Fragile new players won't pay 20 bucks for respecs when they can correct most early mistakes in a matter of hours/days => no benefit, no solution for most specific issues. 20m plus vets are already "core gamers", with comunity and (possibly) responsibility. If someone like that leaves; lack of respecs is not the reason => huge benefit, no specific issues respecs even would solve. 3) This might be true but i highly doubt that they are benefitial to them or the game as a whole. Btw, Paid respecs would directly compete with boosters and scale with character age whereas boosters do not. CCP might end up with the same amount of cash, paid by the same people, for a different product and there is always a point where a respec has more utility than the equivalent worth in boosters => less money made. Lonegnr wrote: 1)Is this a suitable measure for the game?[...] 2)Does it brake the game? a)No; the people doing this would mostly be those who have less SP to begin with.[...] 3)But it'll give players unfair advantages![...]No, it doesn't[...] 1)The character bazaar is merely regulating what would happen either way. It does also mean that for every fotm char bought by one person, another one just lost this very character so FOTM chasing doesn't affect the game as a whole. Respecs create FOTM viable chars and implify any and all inherent imbalances, making reasonable balance more difficult to achieve and much, much more easy to break. 2) a)You claimed the oppsite just a few lines earlier. And i think this one here is wrong. 3)Paying to negate any risk or commitment, actually any consequence of the skillsystem, whose sole purpose is to enforce consequence is an unfair advantage. New Eden is not an excuse for everything. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1087	Posted - 2013.12.15 19:47:00 - [18] - Quote Now on to the proposal voiced in the OP: Having some form of "try before you buy" option might be a handy thing to have but i'm afraid your proposal might not be as practical as one might expect. As has been said earlier, per that idea I couldn't try anything that really differs from whatever I'm already skilled into. Changing races or roles (or both) usually requires more than one skill to produce a half viable fit and the limitation to lvl1 would only allow me to try skills that most of the time are so inexpensive that the investment i'd be able to undo would be inconsequencial anyways. Last but not least. AUR and LP suits/gear already allow you to test most std/adv fits and gear with no/low skill investment so that the issue you're trying to tackle is somewhat solved already through existing mechanics. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...


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