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Oswald Rehnquist
875
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Posted - 2013.12.14 07:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I agree, tanks aren't OP. They're more accessible. No more SP > skill disparity to keep tanking a niche specialty anymore. You can do work with a soma or sica and get enough out of the experience to see if you want to actually invest SP. This pisses off neckbeard tankers and it pisses off AV spoiled by the crippled tanks we saw in early Uprising. Props to Wolfman for angering two communities while making a niche role viable and fun.
I actually sympathize with the nechbead tankers because they were the bottom of the food chain to now being mocked as cheap tactics, and 0 mill tankers are just as effective as 10 mill tankers, which I see as disheartening for those players who's investment has just been trivialized.
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Oswald Rehnquist
877
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Posted - 2013.12.14 08:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Cosgar wrote:I agree, tanks aren't OP. They're more accessible. No more SP > skill disparity to keep tanking a niche specialty anymore. You can do work with a soma or sica and get enough out of the experience to see if you want to actually invest SP. This pisses off neckbeard tankers and it pisses off AV spoiled by the crippled tanks we saw in early Uprising. Props to Wolfman for angering two communities while making a niche role viable and fun. I actually sympathize with the nechbead tankers because they were the bottom of the food chain to now being mocked as cheap tactics, and 0 mill tankers are just as effective as 10 mill tankers, which I see as disheartening for those players who's investment has just been trivialized. People didn't like the idea of SP > skill for infantry. Why should it be the same for vehicles. The fact that it takes more skill than who has the best fit is worlds better. I just saw two soma pull a pincer on a gunlogi tonight. Probably one of the most epic things I've seen thus far. Infantry combat needs to be this fun.
Then I would have to ask why have sp at all if it is reasonable to have a 10 mill tanker be about as good as a 0 mill tanker. Meaning that 10 mill tanker is now behind the 0 sp tanker because he didn't waste his sp into vehicles.
I also would not want this to happen to infantry at all. I just imagine what it would be if scouts were just made easy mode that didn't require any investment and how well that would go over with the scout community, probably not so well. Niche may want buffs but they generally like the idea of it being niche and a little difficult.
I don't think this counts as a rebuttal on my part, more of a fact that we just don't see eye to eye on this issue.
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Oswald Rehnquist
877
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Posted - 2013.12.14 08:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:
There's still a skill gap, but this time it's a bit more about experience and player skill. A better fit and SP investment is always going to have an advantage, but you can't just sit there and spread sheet them to death. Aside from dropsuit tiers and module imbalance, it's roughly the same for infantry. Good players can get it done with starter gear, a good tanker should be able to do the same with militia.
Tankers do not have any passive boosts at all, unlike infantry which gets a ton for every stat, and fitting on vehicles is extremely difficult meaning you are only getting the few modules up anyways. What this translates to is that it is a useless sp sink to go far into vehicles, and that vehicle depth has just became more shallow. Which I think is the wrong direction. In this iteration vehicle effectiveness are like those presets in other vanilla fps games, which is not the defining Dust characteristic. The sp sink is also deceptive because it is a waste when you can do better by just playing with the militia and just work on that.
There is almost no spreadsheet at all with the vehicles as they stand at the moment.
Below 28 dB
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Oswald Rehnquist
877
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Posted - 2013.12.14 09:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Cosgar wrote:
There's still a skill gap, but this time it's a bit more about experience and player skill. A better fit and SP investment is always going to have an advantage, but you can't just sit there and spread sheet them to death. Aside from dropsuit tiers and module imbalance, it's roughly the same for infantry. Good players can get it done with starter gear, a good tanker should be able to do the same with militia.
Tankers do not have any passive boosts at all, unlike infantry which gets a ton for every stat, and fitting on vehicles is extremely difficult meaning you are only getting the few modules up anyways. What this translates to is that it is a useless sp sink to go far into vehicles, and that vehicle depth has just became more shallow. Which I think is the wrong direction. In this iteration vehicle effectiveness are like those presets in other vanilla fps games, which is not the defining Dust characteristic. The sp sink is also deceptive because it is a waste when you can do better by just playing with the militia and just work on that. There is almost no spreadsheet at all with the vehicles as they stand at the moment. Should infantry have the same spreadsheet disparity then?
I apologize I'm not exactly sure what you are asking, if you can clarify that would be great, otherwise here hopefully this hits your question right.
Infantry are more spreedsheet based than vehicles, with vehicles being as close to no spreadsheets / no sp as possible in dust.
I do not want infantry to go the direction of the vehicles I would rather have vehicles go back towards the direction of infantry where there is some purpose to long term investment sp wise and not just personal experience.
Hopefully I answered your question there.
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Oswald Rehnquist
881
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Posted - 2013.12.14 18:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:
I'm saying should a proto suit be able to spreadsheet lower meta fits like tanks used to?
I think my last response answers that then, tanks are less spreadsheet than infantry as it stands, if you consider infantry "good", then tanks need to at least have the same spreadsheet potential as infantry, which has a skill to passively boost every stat.
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Oswald Rehnquist
881
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Posted - 2013.12.14 19:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Cosgar wrote:
I'm saying should a proto suit be able to spreadsheet lower meta fits like tanks used to?
I think my last response answers that then, tanks are less spreadsheet than infantry as it stands, if you consider infantry "good", then tanks need to at least have the same spreadsheet potential as infantry, which has a skill to passively boost every stat. Actually I hope they do the opposite and remove all passive skills for infantry aside from stuff like circuitry and engineering. They made a good chili a by linking passives to efficacy bonuses but lingering skills like proficiency adding to raw DPS and shield/armor upgrades increasing HP hurt the overall skill > gear balance they keep claiming to aim for. But it also stems from TTK as well. Extenders and plates should be an added bonus, not a requirement with a higher emphasis on the complexities of different tanking types. If the new tank balancing is any indication to what 1.8's infantry balance will bring, I might get my wish.
Unlike the logi who can actually use a ton of modules to do what they want, the more deprived classes are on the other hand much more dependent on passives.
You are going to have to pardon me on this one but I find it a little suspicious to keep the cpu/pg increases when that is the logi's extreme stat, while the extreme stats of the other suits are to be dropped. I'm sure the heavy would like the ehp buffing skills (which they now lose 200+ ehp) because ehp is their extreme stat, precision and profile for scouts, and I'm pretty sure the more deprived cpu/pg classes would benefit more from dropping the cpu/pg skill because it would impact medium frames to a greater degree who have no issues with taking roles as it is.
That is not even getting into the fact that racials are currently passive and if they were to be replaced with bonuses to mods then any suit with a low module count gets screwed out of less utility from their racial.
A module only view is a very logi centric view because that is what logis operate on. So if that is the direction you want, classes are going to need an entire overhaul, changing all the stats again, and with logis losing their slot advantage because that would impede balance in a module only system.
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