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Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1055	Posted - 2013.12.14 20:06:00 - [1] - Quote TheBLAZZED wrote: early chromosomes I had matches where I would easily kill 50 in ambush but one proto fg would kill me. Now, 20 kills is a great game. I just think everybody got used to paper thin they were in 1.6.-á I do way less damage than I did a week ago. Here are the issues I do see currently Damage threshold for sheild tanks don't account for hardeners. They keep repping while under fire.(swarms and large blaster) Milita tanks plagued the battle feild due to their high effectiveness and low investment. vehicle quotas count as a total number of vehicles. It should be breakdown of each vehicle. Ie: 4tanks, 4 lavs , 4 ds instead of 12 vehicles (just an example. Not numbers I'm suggesting) Av has no incentive to chase tanks off. Armor is fast but it turns like a 747... maybe a extended cool down on fuel injectors would help. Sorry for another tank thread but I've been tanking a LONG time and wanted to share my thoughts. Ty 25 kills in a 50 clone Ambush is a good game for me, now. That's 50% of the enemy clones, usually while 1-2 Militia HAVs are thrown at me along with 4-5 AV players. There are 16 players. The fact that 2 of me could clone all 16 enemies without dieing is hilariously overpowering, much more so due to the low prices. Second, as for shield tanks repping under fire, at least against other vehicles, it's because they need it. Gunnlogi + 2 Shield Hardeners + Amped ADV Blaster versus Madrugar + 2 Armor Hardeners and 1 ENH or COM Armor Repairer + Amped ADV Blaster. Which wins? The Gunnlogi is far harder to use in that if you get hit before activating hardeners, your shields will, literally, drop in 2 seconds of the Madrugar's Blaster fire or 1 hit of a Railgun/Proto Forge Gun, which also stops regeneration, while the Madrugar can just activate his modules as his shields drop, since they don't affect shields anyway and he has massive reserve HP, with no delays in recovering it. If you preempt the Madrugar, blast off its shields and then you both activate your modules, the Madrugar can't really out damage your regeneration while you slowly punch through his. It already takes SO LONG that by the time his HP is critical, there is an extremely high chance your hardeners would've worn off, especially if he starts to flee making it hard to fit him, at which point he can pop you, literally, within 4 seconds. If you didn't regenerate, it would take him 10 seconds to down your shields and 2 seconds to down your armor, through 2 hardeners, while it would take you probably 20-30 seconds to kill him due to his reps. Add in the fact that hardeners last longer, cooldown faster and rep faster out of combat too due to no delays and the armor tank is 100% better. What would be the shield tanker's role then? Instantly popped by preempts and long range attacks before hardeners go on, tiny health, slow regeneration, no regeneration in combat, slower movement, need to use high slots to tank lowering DPS, speed and awareness, outlasted by two to three times by most armor hardened tanks regardless of shield hardeners, which last for a shorter period of time, have much longer cooldowns and have their stronger resistance mostly negated by their tiny HP pool and the fact that Blasters and Railguns do more damage to them than armor. I use both Gunnys and Maddys and the Gunnys are much, much harder to use. I actually lose Gunnys to AV and Turrets, whereas I only, rarely, lose a Maddy to another, usually better fitted, tank(s). Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1055	Posted - 2013.12.15 02:04:00 - [2] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: 1. Blasters are a primarily anti-infantry weapon. Complaining that they take a long time to kill a tank is like complaining that an Assault Rifle takes too long to kill a tank. Okay, change the turret to an ADV Railgun. Due to drawbacks with their modules, the shield tank hardened should die more slowly than the armor tank hardened. The first shot drops his shields, takes around the same time as the Madrugar to drop the armor at the end so we can drop those from the equation. Your DPS is 1668 damage * 0.9 efficacy * 1.3 amps * 0.6 hardener1 * 0.675 hardener2 after penalties / 2.0 charge up time plus interval and fifth second human delay - 175 repper on Madrugar. DPS? 220. TTK? 20 seconds excluding shields. In fact, due to only having 9 ammo per clip and having to reload, this is even longer. Not so different from Blasters and without reps during hardeners, the Railgun Shield Tank would die two to three times as fast as the Blaster Armor Tank, which has an "infantry" turret. Okay, change the turret to ADV Missiles. These are the last option left. A volley takes about 2 seconds. Without shield recharge you would have to kill in one burst because the reload would probably kill you. The first two missiles do almost 1200 shield damage amped so we'll say these drop the shields. Remaining volley damage is 498 damage * 1.2 * 1.3 * 0.6 * 0.675 * 10. I can't remember, but I think Missile efficacy against armor is 120%. Total damage? Slightly over 3100 damage. Over 1000 HP remains after reps, you lose. Now, if you had reload speed 5 and hit every missile in your initial volley, you could reload and they'd have 2300 armor afterwards and still have hardeners up, so another half a volley right after the reload would kill. However, an 8 second reload after skills is easily long enough for the already faster Maddy to get away, especially since he can fit nitrous as his 5th module and you cannot, due to needing at least 2 shield modules and an amp to try to outdamage his defenses. After he escapes, as your hardeners go down, his are still up and he is fully repped. Again, unable to kill in one volley, you lose. Garrett Blacknova wrote: 2. Blasters are primarily focused on shield damage. Giving both vehicles the same weapon when one vehicle has built-in resistance to the weapon on its main tank and the other vehicle has a built-in vulnerability is a great way to introduce a huge amount of bias. The best way to kill a Blaster Tank is with another tank using a weapon that ISN'T a Blaster. If there's an enemy Madrugar running Blasters, a primarily Militia-fitted Sica can attach a Standard Large Missile Turret and destroy the Maddy before it even gets in Blaster range. Also, as a shield tank, you have a lot less to fear from AV, which is heavily weighted towards anti-armour effectiveness. Most attacks short of Proto Swarms can be shrugged off with little concern even when you're NOT running hardeners. Forge Guns are a threat, but you can retreat, recover and pop hardeners before moving in again. I just did the other 2 weapons, was hoping I wouldn't have to. Also, once again, unable to pop a Maddy in a full volley gives him plenty of time to get away, fully rep and kill you. Rails are hilarious; without regen he could literally boost at you, you'd run out of all your ammo before you could kill him, and you'd be dead 10 seconds later. All to an anti-infantry tank, versus an anti-tank tank. Fear AV more as shields because if they hit me when my hardeners are down I lose most of my shields and all my reps. Armor has a shield layer, plenty of time to react. Garret Blacknova wrote: Where armour is good at actively tanking infantry AV attacks because of the longer duration of their modules, shields have a better passive tank against such things, making them more suited to long-range combat and running as the AV tank. You need to have good situational awareness for AV, but you need to get in closer for anti-infantry. The highest pool of HP you can get for 2 slots and still have the amps needed to actually kill a tank before it pops the crap out of you is two hardeners. Remove regen and you're screwed. A Booster is worth less total HP than another hardener and so is an extender. A hardener even after stacking penalties on resistance, more than doubles HP, being equal to a 2300 HP extender, while the highest is 1300. Boosters are still worse in a 1 v 1 to the death, but their faster cooldown may make them have more utility if native regen under fire were not available. As I proved with math above, a double hardened Madrugar that would normally cycle its hardeners to shrug off AV and dominate infantry with all its advantages can activate them both at once and pop any double hardened shield tanker, provided the armor pilot is not an idiot and doesn't eat a full Missile volley with no hardeners on, at which point any missile tank could've popped him, even an armor one, so why shield tank? Cont. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1055	Posted - 2013.12.15 02:58:00 - [3] - Quote I haven't been instantly popped even in my 110k Sica with only one Standard item in the fitting (my Large Missile Turret). I can drop a Sica's full shields in 2 seconds with a Blaster if it is unhardened. One double amped Railgun round from a Sica literally drops a Gunnlogi's shields in a single shot. It 2HKOs, with 2 seconds between the initial shot and the followup that kills you. My worst Sica fitting has over 5000 raw HP. Slightly slower, but not by much, and can be buffed with Shield Boosters. Again, this "problem" can be solved with Shield Boosters. Kind of like the problem with armour where you can't get ANY regen AT ALL without fitting a repairer. Shield tanks get passive regen WITHOUT fitting any modules, so of course that regen will come with additional limitations. The armor does not matter. The shields matter. The HP is tiny and adding an extender or booster rather than a second hardener severely gimps the amount of damage you can take in a firefight. The best durability fitting is 2 hardeners and I did the math for that fit versus an equivalent armor hardened tank for all turret types versus a blaster, an infantry turret as you say, and it loses every single one. This is a mathematical fact. A second shield hardener is worth 3200 shields after stacking penalties. (2650 + 3200) / 0.4 == 2650 / 0.4 / 0.45 within a single Blaster round in accuracy. So, this means no more math even needs to be done beyond my previous calculations, as they are all worse. The Missiles would land a full volley and die before getting to fire again with an extender or booster. The Rail would just flat out die faster as well. If neither pilots mess up, the double hardened armor tank has a trump card over the shield hardened tank, which is better than hardener + extender and hardener + booster in a tank on tank battle. but faster acceleration, making speed modules less of a necessity. The only time the speed really matters is in the Missile scenario. I'm pretty sure a Nitrous Injected Madrugar will get away from your sluggish, non-boosted Gunnlogi pretty damn fast. The Nitrous makes up for the acceleration. You don't need speed modules? In the only scenarios you would win where you don't instapop him from behind before he can activate, you need to chase him down. Regardless of whether or not you NEED them, you cannot FIT THEM anyway due to the extreme health and damage penalty. Have more high slots, allowing for a "glass cannon" fit that allows higher DPS than a Madrugar can ever achieve. If you use two amps, you have one slot left. You cannot use 3 unless you really think that 15% damage is worth dieing in 4 seconds to most decent Blaster sets. An extender is worthless, so is a booster. A hardener makes your HP jump up 150%, or 4000 HP if it's your first, three times as much as an extender and twice as much as a booster. Either way, said double hardened Madrugar still kills you. He has 1200 DPS, so 5 seconds to drop your hardened shields. I don't think you'll be popping him in 5 seconds through 2 hardeners and a repper based on all previous math with 1 amp pointing to 15-30 seconds. The glass cannon only works if you hit first before he can get anything up, at which point why am I in a Gunnloggi with "waves of opportunity"? I can fit 2 damage amps, missiles, a hardener and a heavy repper on a Madrugar. Guess what? With my hardener up I have about the same health as the Gunnlogi, but with passive reps, and I don't die as soon as someone hits me without my hardener on except for other missiles. My cooldowns are better, I'm always repping. I take some more damage from AV, lowing my HP a bit, but the passive reps lower their DPS to compensate when under fire and don't have delays once I get out of fire. Except that this claim is only backed by the assumption that you're both using anti-shield weaponry where the armour tank has an innate advantage. Read math before, should've done it earlier. Missiles are slightly better, but the Maddy is much faster and can escape, come back 10 seconds after you're done reloading and your hardeners and amp are down and pop you. His hardeners are still up, your amps are down, cannot kill even with all shots hitting. I didn't calculate the TTK for the armor tanker with all guns, because my point was to make an armor tank that defeats the most durable, damaging Gunnlogi in any head on fight (if you aren't going head on, you can use any tank in the game, including militia armor tanks). Double hardened Blaster Maddy with an amp and nitrous is the answer, because it is literally impossible to pop him with same tier gear before he pops you, or escapes by going, what is it, 50% faster than you do after nitrous (if you can't get away in 8 seconds, at least far enough to dodge 5 missiles to make the second volley also unable to kill you, then... yeah.) So negate the lacking HP pool with a Shield Booster and bring Missiles to counter armour because that's what they're weak against. I don't see how this is a problem? You don't see the problem because all the armor tankers are too busy being idiots in Somas, not doing math to optimize their durability against other tanks or lacking SP. Again, boosters, extenders and hardeners all add to the amount of damage you can take in a tank fight. Hardeners, by far, add the most. The third hardener probably ties with boosters but you need an amp to outdamage reppers because their effect on DPS is subtractive causing a threshold effect. I run both Sicas and Gunnlogis, and with either one, I can comfortably say that a Blaster Madrugar will die against me more often than the reverse. Congratulations. My posts were addressing what would happen if shield regen during hardeners was taken out. Gunny pilot's need to be more thoughful already, removing regen removes the reward for that. I use a Gunny for AV, would not without regen for reasons above. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1055	Posted - 2013.12.15 08:25:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Have you tried doing the math where you account for the range advantage of the Missile Turrets on a Sica/Gunnlogi? ... And if you're running double hardeners on your Sica/Gunnlogi, guess what? The higher resist means you can cycle your hardeners instead of needing to pop both at once, and keep up the still-high resist for long enough to stand up against the enemy tank. Have you considered bringing a Gunnlogi with a Heavy Shield Extender, one Hardener and a Shield Booster for mid-combat regen? Or with the Extender and dual hardeners? Either of those fittings is better than running dual hardeners and damage mod. Designing a shield tank to do what armour tanks are built for ... Also, you suck at Railguns. ... your second shot can follow up not only less than 2s after your first ... you can generally 3-shot an armour tank if the first hit lands ... Fair points. First off, my point is not that Shield tanks suck. They are very viable right now and they are my go-to AV tanks. I am definitely not complaining about their performance in TvT at the moment, I am saying that completely removing shield regen when hardeners are up will make them too squishy for too little an increase in DPS over Madrugars. Essentially, they will be glass cannons, with too few other options in how to use them. As I explained, a Booster, even without native reps, allows you to take much less damage than using another hardener. Complex Shield Extenders in a 1 v 1 extend your lifespan by 50%. The most popular Madrugar I see uses 1 Hardener and 2 Reppers for 300+ HP/S repair. Blasters almost double DPS against the popular double reps Madrugar when amped due to reppers being subtractive and not divisive, Railguns do not usually benefit from extenders as much as amps due to range, and Missiles is preference. Also, yes, I run Railguns sometimes and 3HKO most unhardened enemies with 2 Amps. As soon as they harden, you're looking at 4HKOs and 5HKOs. Double hardened with one repper is a 6HKO, assuming you preempt the first shot and he activates before the second hits. The Madrugar will not sit there for 10 seconds after his hardeners are activated and take it; he'll boost away, rep the damage done in maybe 15 seconds, realize he has 25 seconds to go on his hardeners and your amps will already be down very, very soon and boost at you. Unless you're behind the redline or have multiple rail tanks (you could use Somas if you do, hah), he could go right up to you and pop you within the time of his hardeners and you'd be helpless, because you'd need probably 8 unamped shots to kill him and it takes him maybe 8 seconds to kill you through hardener without regen. A competent Madrugar in a burst damage resistant fitting can pop a glass cannon Gunnlogi or Sica pretty easily, all the while performing anti infantry as well, because his Blaster works well on both shields and infantry. Most armor tankers are too busy stacking as many reppers as they can to bother with this, which makes them easier targets to burst damage. The regen offers us a bit more breathing room when we harden to prevent the enemy tank from just rolling up and popping us and also offers us a few options that give us high burst defense for a limited time to disable dangerous threats. Basically, you want shield tanks to be burst offense and armor to be burst defense. Rather than offense vs defense, long range because you're too squishy vs close range because you're very hard, I want burst vs sustainable. Without regen, armor HAVs would just straight up be more survivable, even when your "waves of opportunity" are in play, because you're just trading defense for offense which equalizes the TTKs, unless you get a preempt from 300m away. I was not aware that shield tanks were "3 Damage Amplifier Railgun Redline AV Tanks" and should lose, even when hardened, to an equally hardened armor tank in most other situations. You could use all 3 of your highs on shields, but they can use all 3 of their lows on armor and still fit an amp and nitrous. You want to talk Railgun balance? Well, nothing stops the Madrugar from fitting a Railgun with 2 damage modifiers, a hardener, a repper and a CPU mod. It does 20% more damage to you than you do to it, it's faster, has a longer lasting hardener, faster cooldown, reps while under fire and can be preempted and survive. Meanwhile, you're double amped, one hardener fit takes one shot to shields, loses them all, activates hardener too late and dies in 1 more shot if it gets preempted. 2 shots to armor with a hybrid tank. Especially at low SP levels, armor tanks can actually make good rail tanks. As for cycling hardeners, they're a joke without the regen that is protecting you that you want to remove. Armor tanks can cycle and get the same results if you remove the shield regen. 2650 health / 0.4 damage multiplier is the same as 4000 health / 0.6 damage multiplier, which CCP obviously did on purpose. Your health to damage ration is condensed, so healing is faster, which doesn't help you if you can't regen. Cycled Shield Hardeners get the same base TTK, but take 20% more damage from Blasters and Railguns than armor, last 20% shorter in duration, etc. The advantage is you rep faster under fire than cycled armor hardeners + repper. You can't regen if you're dead and the delay lowers the speed. Sure, they can fit a damage amp. So can the Madrugar. The Madrugar has room left for a Nitrous, while the Gunnlogi is stuck with low slots, which you can only fill with ammo (not that useful) or armor (not great on a shield tank). For example of severity of nerf, you'd take double damage from non-amplified Blasters. After heat, you more than halve your lifespan by removing regen. I'd prefer if they nerfed regen while hardened without removing it correctly. Something like 170 unhardened, 100 hardened and 80 double hardened, as the hardeners put a strain on the HAV. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.

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