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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
900
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Posted - 2013.12.13 04:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP is pushing to close the gap between experienced and new pilots. With 1.7, they basically did just that, but it created the problem where everyone can get a stock HAV (I haven't seen threads so far about dropships or LAVs) with 0 SP investment and perform just as well as the dedicated tanker who spent 10mil SP.
We need skills to affect fittings and attributes a lot more than simply reducing cooldown and active timers. Turrets themselves are fine because they progress in damage as they advance in tier. Turret skills are also fine because they require a lot of SP to max out, but definitely creates a gap between a new pilot and a pilot who has maxed their skills.
The problem comes from the core skills not doing enough and the modules not becoming more effective as they advance with tier (cooldown timers excluded). For example, simply reintroducing the skills that gave +5% to max shield/armor per level would increase the gap between new and experienced pilots (anyone still remember those days?).
We also need a lot more support skills that increase module effectiveness. For example, shield extender efficacy, shield booster efficacy, resistance amplifier efficacy, etc. Adding skills like these will help to distinguish between dedicated pilots and new pilots. It will also discourage players from buying a stock vehicle with 0 SP investment that don't intend on specializing into vehicles, while those that are dedicated to specialize will break through the high barrier to entry.
I would like to imagine that having all skills at level 1 would give someone a good taste of that specific vehicle while remaining easy to kill. All skills at level 3 would be decent enough to require one proto AV, while all skills at level 5 would be enough to stand up to at least one proto AV (all depends on the fitting used, of course).
TL:DR
1.7 further closed the gap between new and experienced vehicle pilots. This brought a lot of people into stock HAVs who never intend to specialize into vehicles while being able to perform at the level of a dedicated tanker. Re-introducing the gap through support skills and increasing the differences between modules among the tiers would help to increase the gap.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
900
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Posted - 2013.12.13 04:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:A lot could be solved by lowering the effectiveness of the base models, and adding actual module/turret/chassy bonuses to the current SP sink skills that do nothing but unlock more stuff...
It would be very simple.
Basically, every skill should do something other than unlocking new stuff. I can't recall any skills from EVE that don't provide a bonus.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
903
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Posted - 2013.12.13 04:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:Harpyja wrote:
I'd like to further argue why it's a good idea to have a lot of support skills like these. In EVE, there is the saying that "being able to fly a ship isn't good enough." That's true
Also, that is not true. There are two sayings in EVE. 1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. 2. Even a noob ship can fit a point. Your saying is made up.
No, it is perfectly true. Being able to fly a ship doesn't mean you can use it. Say I can fly a carrier, but I can't use capital sized modules and fighters, but I can afford it. That doesn't mean I should use it though, as it will be terribly outperformed by a battleship with appropriate skills.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
903
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 04:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:Harpyja wrote:Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:A lot could be solved by lowering the effectiveness of the base models, and adding actual module/turret/chassy bonuses to the current SP sink skills that do nothing but unlock more stuff...
It would be very simple. Basically, every skill should do something other than unlocking new stuff. I can't recall any skills from EVE that don't provide a bonus. DUST skills provide a bonus. You unlock stuff. EVE is very different than DUST and that is the way it should be.
EVE skills also unlock stuff. And the SP gaps in EVE work rather fine. Don't tell me that the current situation where everyone can buy a Soma with 0 SP and own the field is fine. We need a gap to prevent stuff like this.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
903
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 04:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Heathen Bastard wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:I quite enjoy it like this, adds to the enjoyment, a skillful newer player can beat a veteran. Still, am taking them on in their twos and threes. It should be like that, but as it stands, a fresh faced merc out of the academy is 90% as effective as a veteran tanker with millions of SP sunk into tanks. that's the real issue here. So? I've got 14m back into my shields, turrets and HAV 1, I don't give a damn if I get hit by a newb and killed, people need to stop asking to win against all the things, experience and skill > SP. You're paying for an advantage, your SP also gives an advantage, you survive an extra shot from a rail, or a full missile volley in an armor tank. Your experience is what should keep you alive. Again, fighting noobs all day, in 3v1 scenarios and winning them. I've lost a max of 5 tanks today, despite wasting a shtton of tanks, I counted 12 wasted in one match from me, along with 4 Jihad Jeeps. Seriously, if we weren't strong enough already, ya'll want to make newbs weaker?
But the problem is that you get players that aren't interested into specializing into vehicles that get themselves Somas with 0 SP and murder infantry while they are rarely threatened by AV.
Yes, I get that experienced tankers will always beat those noobs that just want easy kills without spending SP. Yes, I get that experienced tankers will beat aspiring tankers with little SP investment. But it's not balanced if people that don't want to spend any SP can hop into a Soma and survive proto AV.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
905
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Posted - 2013.12.13 05:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:There is a gap, and a no SP invested soma is not a god. I lost plenty of them. It is called teamwork and attacks of opportunity. I think vehicles are actually balanced quite well now. Just because you are unwilling to adapt to the playstyle needed to kill them it means they need a nerf. Counters are there, use them, think about them and stop whining.
Well let me tell you that I am a dedicated tanker with over 10 million SP invested. My SP and experience will beat the crap out of anybody that has close to no SP invested. So I am not whining.
But infantry and AV are complaining about the fact that there's too many tanks on the field and that they are too strong. Yes, they are too strong for having 0 SP invested. But that doesn't mean that vehicles should get nerfed into the ground again because of everyone that gets a stock Soma with 0 SP.
Vehicles are simply too effective with minimal SP investment.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
905
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 05:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Harpyja wrote:Rowdy Railgunner wrote:There is a gap, and a no SP invested soma is not a god. I lost plenty of them. It is called teamwork and attacks of opportunity. I think vehicles are actually balanced quite well now. Just because you are unwilling to adapt to the playstyle needed to kill them it means they need a nerf. Counters are there, use them, think about them and stop whining. Well let me tell you that I am a dedicated tanker with over 10 million SP invested. My SP and experience will beat the crap out of anybody that has close to no SP invested. So I am not whining. But infantry and AV are complaining about the fact that there's too many tanks on the field and that they are too strong. Yes, they are too strong for having 0 SP invested. But that doesn't mean that vehicles should get nerfed into the ground again because of everyone that gets a stock Soma with 0 SP. Vehicles are simply too effective with minimal SP investment. See you run into a big problem here, you balance on one side and dismiss the other. Newbie Tanks can take on current tanks, fine, AVers struggling, so help AVers, nerf newer tankers, now they can't take on proper tanks because they've been nerfed to ****. The only way you're gonna get around this is by adding support items for AVers that make killing newer tanks a lot easier but allow two tanks to still go at it.
You have a valid argument. And this is quite the mess, as you can only choose one of them, really. Do you want newbie tanks to be as competitive as veteran tanks, or do you want veteran tanks > newbie tanks?
The problem with the first option is that anyone can make themselves very resistant to AV with minimal SP. This is upsetting infantry because it can take close to 0 SP to make yourself practically invincible to anything but a coordinated alpha strike of AV or an experienced tanker.
The problem with the second option is that newbies don't stand a chance to veteran tanks. However, I feel that this is the better choice. First, someone who is dedicated to become specialized into tanks will push through this high barrier. Second, it makes them easier kills for AV and prevents the problem in the first option. Basically, this filters out those that want to become specialized and those that just want to use tanks as the new FOTM.
@Eurydice, I'll let you have your thread. I wasn't even concerned with that, so knock yourself out 
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
906
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Posted - 2013.12.13 14:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
I still think this is the best solution. Any more thoughts?
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
906
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 14:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Harpyja wrote:
But the problem is that you get players that aren't interested into specializing into vehicles that get themselves Somas with 0 SP and murder infantry while they are rarely threatened by AV.
Yes, I get that experienced tankers will always beat those noobs that just want easy kills without spending SP. Yes, I get that experienced tankers will beat aspiring tankers with little SP investment. But it's not balanced if people that don't want to spend any SP can hop into a Soma and survive proto AV.
Did all of D-UNI decide that they were going to be the banner carriers for scrubs everywhere? If an enemy tank is murdering you, you better get some AV. Don't have any, better get to grinding that SP. That people made it this far into the game without speccing AV shows you how soft tanks were in 1.6. If the Soma is survivng proto AV, how about you wait untli his modules kick off and he enters that very very long cooldown timer to go and hit him. He won't be survivng proto AV then.
What's your problem with D-Uni? And I'm a veteran tanker speaking out my thoughts, so AV is not my problem, as my Gunnlogi will take out just about any tank out there.
You missed the point of the post though. It's not balanced for someone to get a Soma with ZERO SP investment and become nearly invincible. There needs to be a SP gap to keep the determined pilots and discourage those interested in becoming invincible with 0 SP investment.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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