DUST Search - AV -> Vehicle "Dilemma"

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

1.) Imho, one grenade shouldn't be able to take out an LAV, militia or otherwise, much less tanks. Two to three proto? Sure, but tier-to-tier LAVs should survive at least 2. LAVs are meant to be blockade runners, so having 1 proxy mine-esque, magnetically targeting, OHKO grenade defeats that purpose. However, I think that multiple grenades should kill LAVs that are either stuck or matador-ing.

Tanks should not be directly threatened by this "secondary AV" weapon, at lease with modules on. I see AV-nades, with relation to tanks, as either support for primary AVer from regular infantry or as supplemental to AVer.

2.) As far as range goes, it made no sense for swarms to shoot as far as they did. Rails are the farthest shooting things in the EvE mechanics, so they shouldn't shoot as far as as a forge. Also, their range compared to small missile turrets makes no sense at al either. Fight distance based on how fast they go for a certain time, which is proportional to their size (because of fuel or something), so it makes no sense that a swarm launcher half the size of a vehicle launcher that shoots 4-6 even smaller rockets should almost double the range of a vehicle missile.

I haven't done any damage/DPS calculations, but from what I can glaze over, it seems that vehicles are virtually invincible with active mods, but are obviously more week when in cool down. Even then, it make take the consorted effort of two or more AVers for more effective killing.

3.) Forges seem fine to me, atm (granted I haven't played, yet). I haven't heard complaints from either side.


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Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.12.11 19:18:00 - [1] - Quote ok, I haven't playing in a LONG LONG LONG time b/c of how bad the game became, but figured id snoop around for 1.7 and see where things lay. Besides CCP not touching ttk which the community seems to be in agreement on that it is to short (especially compared to what us vets enjoyed back in codex/E3 when breach was op); the "new issue" seems to be the av interaction with vehicles. Having used both since replication, but specifically falling into being a dedicated AV'er, I can concede AV in terms of swarms needed some alteration. In 1.7 changes were made that affect both parties and how they operate. (all based w/o gameplay, simply by numbers and how things went). 1). Tankers can no longer complain about AV being less costly. Your basic tank hull is < 1/2 the price it once was. Along w/ less modules = less overall cost, where AV cost remain the same. As need to figure now with AV effectiveness reduced more then likely will die more often in trying to kill you. 2). Previous tank starting HP was ~ 3-4k (plz correct if wrong); now starting HP is b/t 5-6k pending on skills 3). Tanks are more mobile 4). All AV (aside from plasma cannon, and unless things changes this was unused as real AV threat anyway) have been reduced in their effectiveness. **************** Based on those simple parameters, it could be said that Tanks now have a "big" advantage in situations; as such: 1). LV'ing AV nades is more/less worthless; as Proto nades (be regular or packed) are unable to OHK basic/militia LAV's. If you look at this as a pure SP spending standpoint, you put ~1.2millions SP into that ability. Your militia LAV's cost no SP (yet now cost isk to use if correct), but there isn't any real penalty to your character (SP use), only your wallet is affected. This affects not just AV specific players, but assault players as well, as it takes away their ability from being rammed, or a quick way to take out reinforcements. Maybe im being biased b/c I have proto nades and have forever; but this deters 1/2 of the cost in skilling up nades; if anything should of split off AV from flux/locus nades and altered the multiplier 2). Swarms seemling will be useless in their "designed" roles. If you think of swarms as a stinger/javelin type AV/AA weapon, they are used from far away. I'll refrain from talking damage much; as this is mainly about range issue. For a 175m lock on, you need to take into account a few things. A: tank must be in open territory (as if in enclosed space you'll be MUCH MUCH closer, and a good change a missle will hit against some object on launch reducing damage) B: you most likely will be spotted by tank or infantry after 1st or 2nd shot (meaning ull need to move around a lot; which then reduces YOUR role, as while u run/move tank is healed so essentially you do no damage, and may not even deter the tank) C: lack of "ability" against infantry Next is swarm damage. Simply it was reduced. Best way to examine the detriment it does to this weapons is this: A). 2 of your first 3 shots against a Madag (armor based) will barely break through shield on lower level (milita/standard) B). 2nd of 3 shots from mag will break through shield on higher tier swarms (adv/proto) ** C). 1 Proto swarm user can no longer solo a Madrugar w/ a single mag (w/ skilling got 5 in made, b/c skilling changed its at 3. Will now need 2 mags maybe more pending on time to reload and tank location (THIS is big conflict here, as it has a deeper issue of balance) 3). Forge Gun: simple damage reduction and longer charge time. Cant say much here atm as don't run them; but it seems like it isn't as severe as swarms and AV nade "nerf" b/c if take away from lower camping people were complaining about, as it limits follow up shots and reduce splash damage making it more toward and AV weapon as intended, yet in good hands can still "easily" kill infantry which swarms cannot do. Well that's all I got atm. Lets see how much i'll get flamed
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.12.11 19:18:00 - [2] - Quote reserved
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 373	Posted - 2013.12.11 20:33:00 - [3] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: 1.) Imho, one grenade shouldn't be able to take out an LAV, militia or otherwise, much less tanks. Two to three proto? Sure, but tier-to-tier LAVs should survive at least 2. LAVs are meant to be blockade runners, so having 1 proxy mine-esque, magnetically targeting, OHKO grenade defeats that purpose. However, I think that multiple grenades should kill LAVs that are either stuck or matador-ing. Tanks should not be directly threatened by this "secondary AV" weapon, at lease with modules on. I see AV-nades, with relation to tanks, as either support for primary AVer from regular infantry or as supplemental to AVer. 2.) As far as range goes, it made no sense for swarms to shoot as far as they did. Rails are the farthest shooting things in the EvE mechanics, so they shouldn't shoot as far as as a forge. Also, their range compared to small missile turrets makes no sense at al either. Fight distance based on how fast they go for a certain time, which is proportional to their size (because of fuel or something), so it makes no sense that a swarm launcher half the size of a vehicle launcher that shoots 4-6 even smaller rockets should almost double the range of a vehicle missile. I haven't done any damage/DPS calculations, but from what I can glaze over, it seems that vehicles are virtually invincible with active mods, but are obviously more week when in cool down. Even then, it make take the consorted effort of two or more AVers for more effective killing. 3.) Forges seem fine to me, atm (granted I haven't played, yet). I haven't heard complaints from either side. You bring up a GREAT point in this point that I was waiting to write one. LEVEL to LEVEL BALANCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This to me as an AV'er (and trying to not be biased), is where I think a Proto Nade SHOULD be able to OHK at militia/standard vehicle based on SP investment, and as you said its LEVEL. Level to level balance is something I had spoke of when I played for a LONG time on the AV-Tank dilemma. That is one main reason I never saw a problem w/ Proto Swarms raping Mad's b/c they are a STANDARD TANK. I bet the REAL adv tanks will require 2 proto swarmers; and proto tanks require 3-4 proto swarm/avers to kill it; which WILL BE balanced.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 376	Posted - 2013.12.11 21:21:00 - [4] - Quote interesting to see what everyone is saying/thinking ... most interesting
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 376	Posted - 2013.12.11 21:40:00 - [5] - Quote Crazies Ivan wrote: Personnel I wonder why they didn't just get rid of Proto/Adv AV weapons and just stick with Standard until they release the equalivant in vehicles. It makes no sense to me why they even brought them out in the first place when the vehicles they are suppose to go up against don't even exist. -Remove Prot/Adv AV weapons -Balance Standard AV with standard vehicles -Add Adv AV when Adv vehicles come out and balance with them -Add Proto AV when Proto vehicles come out and balance with them. reason adv/proto av is there there, is b/c up until this last update; the Sagaris/Surya was normally thought of as the adv tank; and the Blackops Tanks were considered proto (sub par though)