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Kazu Fujiwara
Rinas' Raiders
9
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Posted - 2013.12.11 21:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
The problem is with the current TTK.
I run a heavy with an EHP of over 1.5k. It costs me over 100,000 ISK to field one set of this fitting.
I have a life expectancy of under 2 seconds versus just about anything.
Do I expect to be an unkillable death machine? No. No.
I do expect that I can last a bit longer than 2 seconds with a fit that costs as much as a standard tank fit. I do expect people to be scared of my HMG, and to be able to shrug off anything but concentrated fire from multiple sources.
The Heavy suit has no way of "Supporting" it's team. It's designed to kill. It's designed to get up in your face and scream 'COME AT ME". Right now, we just tickle people, while AR users just faceroll us in close combat.
I'll admit, I've had a few games where I've managed to pull off some crazy **** as a Heavy. But they're few and far between. But right now, Heavies aren't worth a damn think, and most of my SP has been put into Heavy suits. I run a full proto build, and it's worthless compared to my 5k Logi build. It really is.
I do feel that Forge Guns are alright just now though. Proto tanks are still crazy, but using a Proto Assault FG seems to work well - mostly. The HMG is worthless. SMGs and shotguns kill faster at close range, and ARs, RRs and CRs have medium range. So where does that leave the HMG? |
Kazu Fujiwara
Rinas' Raiders
9
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 21:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Kazu Fujiwara wrote:The problem is with the current TTK.
I run a heavy with an EHP of over 1.5k. It costs me over 100,000 ISK to field one set of this fitting.
I have a life expectancy of under 2 seconds versus just about anything.
Do I expect to be an unkillable death machine? No. No.
I do expect that I can last a bit longer than 2 seconds with a fit that costs as much as a standard tank fit. I do expect people to be scared of my HMG, and to be able to shrug off anything but concentrated fire from multiple sources.
The Heavy suit has no way of "Supporting" it's team. It's designed to kill. It's designed to get up in your face and scream 'COME AT ME". Right now, we just tickle people, while AR users just faceroll us in close combat.
I'll admit, I've had a few games where I've managed to pull off some crazy **** as a Heavy. But they're few and far between. But right now, Heavies aren't worth a damn thing, and most of my SP has been put into Heavy suits. I run a full proto build, and it's worthless compared to my 5k Logi build. It really is.
I do feel that Forge Guns are alright just now though. Proto tanks are still crazy, but using a Proto Assault FG seems to work well - mostly. The HMG is worthless. SMGs and shotguns kill faster at close range, and ARs, RRs and CRs have medium range. So where does that leave the HMG? Apparently I've had bad luck killing HAVs with my forge. Can't seem to catch one without a militia overdrive and hardeners stuck in cool down. But yeah, the HMG has been relegated to a really weak high rate of fire SMG with the spread of a shotgun.
Oh no, yeah, the Overdrive makes fighting HAVs an issue. But while I don't get a lot of kills with the FG, I do scare off the HAVs easily. I'll settle for that, at least for now.
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Kazu Fujiwara
Rinas' Raiders
13
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Posted - 2013.12.12 23:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
One or two assaults and a scout (my alt) take out a five man heavy + logi team with little effort.
And this is where the problem lies.
Heavy dropsuits currently do not perform anywhere near expected for their price tag. As I've said, I'm not expecting to be unkillable, but what gets me is the fact that I can still die to the edge of a Mass Driver shot, or to a grenade when I'm in a suit that can, apprently, "go toe to toe with armoured vehicles".
Really? 'cause I ain't feeling it. Now the majority of these issues come from the incredibly low TTK right now, across all weapons. With a little tweaking, I believe Forge Guns and vehicles will be pretty damn close to balanced - that's not really an issue for me (we'll ignore the Nitrous right now).
However, that is relegating the Heavy to a single role. Anti-Vehicle.
Assaults are not relegated to a single role.
Scouts are not relegated to a single role.
Hell, even Logistics aren't, as shown by the mass of SlayerLogis we're seeing (which is another argument entirely).
While many of the issues we currently face might very well be fixed with the introduction of Racial Heavy Weapons and Heavy Dropsuits, that doesn't fix the issue that we're facing just now. Ok yes, because of their nature Heavies are prone to a more defensive role, but that's not everything they can do.
Let me just go through a quick scenario.
You're attempting to assault an underground capture point - you know, one of those ones that has the CRU or something above it. The enemy has a spam of Mass Drivers to stop anyone getting close.
This is where you would send in a Heavy dropsuit, or two. They lumber up, plod down the stairs, and get smashed by a few Mass Drivers.
Now, currently. BOOM. Dead Heavy. You know, a dropsuit that is designed to engage with vehicles toe to toe, and is built around surviving vehicle, and anti-vehicle, weaponry.
Now, the Heavy isn't going to wade in there and kill everything. No. What the Heavy is going to do though is make the enemy panic. Their Mass Drivers aren't working now, and they're being pushed back, letting your Assaults and Scouts push up, while the Logistics help the Heavies fortify the point to ensure that you can keep a constant stream of bodies flowing in.
That's the role of the Heavy. Heavy Defense, Anti-Vehicle and Vanguard Assault. It can barely do Anti-Vehicle currently, and it's worthless for defense or assault.
Dakka dakka
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Kazu Fujiwara
Rinas' Raiders
13
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Posted - 2013.12.12 23:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The thing that worries me, as a non-heavy user, is heavies becoming invincible once TTK and HMG is fixed. What's the counter to them in a building, especially after the spread works as intended?
I do think the HMG needs a lot of work, and heavies should last longer than your average bear, but if they get an objective inside a building, whats to stop them? There must be something.
Perhaps make them turn slower slightly? Obviously after they are fixed, doing that now would ruin them for real.
It's something simple like that. The counter to a well played Heavy would be to play smart. Get a scout. Get a breach shotgun. Run up behind the bastard and oneshot him. (Like, seriously, if I let you sneak up on me and get a full body shot with a shotgun, I deserve to die).
It would promote more thinking and tactics and less "Hurr Durr, run through da door, shoot da peoplez".
People ask me, "Why do you fight?" I reply. "Why do you not?"
Beta Warrior, Heavy User, Rinas' Heavy Support Dude
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Kazu Fujiwara
Rinas' Raiders
13
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Posted - 2013.12.12 23:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Kazu Fujiwara wrote:
It's something simple like that. The counter to a well played Heavy would be to play smart. Get a scout. Get a breach shotgun. Run up behind the bastard and oneshot him. (Like, seriously, if I let you sneak up on me and get a full body shot with a shotgun, I deserve to die).
It would promote more thinking and tactics and less "Hurr Durr, run through da door, shoot da peoplez".
This is the same argument tankers are giving to AV. It's taking more than one person to counter one person. While I'm for having heavies needing multiple people to kill being a thing, there must be a limiting factor on heavies, to ensure they can't hold down everything within 40m of them. This is why I suggested reducing turn speed, meaning if someone does flank them, they cannot as readily respond to the threat, or a scout can get in there and bounce around while the heavy can't track it.
Apologies, that's what I meant. Decrease the Tracking of a Heavy, and then you have a smart way to counter them.
People ask me, "Why do you fight?" I reply. "Why do you not?"
Beta Warrior, Heavy User, Rinas' Heavy Support Dude
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