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DusterBuster
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
331
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Posted - 2013.12.11 02:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello Community!
For those of you who do not know me, I am DusterBuster. I have been playing this game since Sansha's Trials, and have been giving feedback on every aspect of the game since then as well.
The point of this thread isn't to QQ about how Dust is dying. If this is what you were hoping for, you can most likely find some of that at the top of GD. Instead, I would actually like to provide some feedback about what I think needs to be done to keep this game relevant, and improve it in the future.
The first thing I think should be done is revert the game to Gamma Testing. Basically, un-release the game, to change the perception of both current and prospective players.
Secondly, I think the game should be ported to PS4 ASAP. This will allow CCP to work on a generation that isn't currently obsolete, and have greater chances of attracting new players. As a side effect, the platform offers hardware that is much more familiar to CCP (who have been working on the PC for over a decade). This means that any time initially invested will be countered by the faster implementation of features, as they do not have to learn how to do it, then learn how to do it for the finicky PS3.
You can click on the links to view Google Drive documents I have created going into more detail about what each change includes.
Please provide any feedback you may have, and if you don't have time, at least click the like button so CCP and other community members know these changes are supported!
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1066
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Posted - 2013.12.11 02:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
The current UE3 engine Dust is built on is modified for the PS3 architecture. Porting to PS4 almost certainly means a complete rewrite of most of the backend/engine stuff and/or an outright port to UE4 which would pretty much entail the recreation of everything that does not fit on a postit on some whiteboard somewhere at the office.
This is not gamma testing. It's essentially scrapping a project and and another of the same name and concept from scratch. This means zero revenue for years all while the bills keep floating in and developers continue to be paid.
The team of CCP shanghai mostly consists of developers that were hired specifically for dust and (now) last gen consoles, including former Bungie (Halo series) employees. It's highly doubtful that porting to x86 will be of any short term use for a team that does not have a profound x86 background.
The PS3 is not obsolete and probably won't be for quite some time. Previous experience from earlier generations suggests that CCP has at least 2 years before not porting leads to any significant financial issues.
Case in point: I don't think there's a reason or benefit to focusing on PS4 right now, even in the long run.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
926
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Posted - 2013.12.11 03:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
And what is your point?
The first port should be to a PC. CCP has a large PC based game that would multiply the DUST user base quickly. Then those EVE players that bought PS3s could sell them and buy PLEX and AURUM.
The problem DUST has technically is it is on UnReal 3.something. The art, however, was created for UnReal 4. Which by some bizarre sequence of events has yet to appear on the PS3. EPIC has been working on it for nearly a decade but the PS3 version is a no show.
Once they are converted to a proper game engine, even if that means UnReal 4, then porting between a PC and either next gen console should be not much more work than a configuration build. The next gen consoles are essentially low to mid level PCs with low power APUs from AMD. The major effort went into reducing the CPU/GPU levels to match the price/power points that both companies felt compelled to drive towards.
First things first: DUST to UnReal 4 (which is probably running at CCP/Shanghai on a PC today).
Then decide where to expand to and if cross platform support will be available. The next port will be obvious, even if that means to stick to the system that has the power to support the game and its art assets. The same one that runs EVE today.
Welcome to DUST, from a first BETA tester as well. |
Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1066
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 03:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
BTW Mordu's Legion > Every other corp. 
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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DusterBuster
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
334
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Posted - 2013.12.11 03:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:BTW Mordu's Legion > Every other corp.
Lol, oops.
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.
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DusterBuster
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
334
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 03:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:And what is your point?
The first port should be to a PC. CCP has a large PC based game that would multiply the DUST user base quickly. Then those EVE players that bought PS3s could sell them and buy PLEX and AURUM.
The problem DUST has technically is it is on UnReal 3.something. The art, however, was created for UnReal 4. Which by some bizarre sequence of events has yet to appear on the PS3. EPIC has been working on it for nearly a decade but the PS3 version is a no show.
Once they are converted to a proper game engine, even if that means UnReal 4, then porting between a PC and either next gen console should be not much more work than a configuration build. The next gen consoles are essentially low to mid level PCs with low power APUs from AMD. The major effort went into reducing the CPU/GPU levels to match the price/power points that both companies felt compelled to drive towards.
First things first: DUST to UnReal 4 (which is probably running at CCP/Shanghai on a PC today).
Then decide where to expand to and if cross platform support will be available. The next port will be obvious, even if that means to stick to the system that has the power to support the game and its art assets. The same one that runs EVE today.
Welcome to DUST, from a first BETA tester as well.
Dust is probably not going to come to PC for a very, very long time. CCP said they want to reach new markets, by reaching out to the PS3. (Even though PC FPS players are not the same as PC MMO players)
The reason I said PS4 is because that seems to be the direction CCP wants to take.
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.
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DusterBuster
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
334
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 03:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:The current UE3 engine Dust is built on is modified for the PS3 architecture. Porting to PS4 almost certainly means a complete rewrite of most of the backend/engine stuff and/or an outright port to UE4 which would pretty much entail the recreation of everything that does not fit on a postit on some whiteboard somewhere at the office.
This is not gamma testing. It's essentially scrapping a project and starting another of the same name and concept from scratch. This means zero revenue for years all while the bills keep floating in and developers continue to be paid.
The team of CCP shanghai mostly consists of developers that were hired specifically for dust and (now) last gen consoles, including former Bungie (Halo series) employees. It's highly doubtful that porting to x86 will be of any short term use for a team that does not have a profound x86 background.
The PS3 is not obsolete and probably won't be for quite some time. Previous experience from earlier generations suggests that CCP has at least 2 years before not porting leads to any significant financial issues.
Case in point: I don't think there's a reason or benefit to focusing on PS4 right now, even in the long run.
One of my major points is that it will take loads of money, time, and effort for CCP to truly optimize Dust for the PS3. It took top tier PS3 exclusive studios years to be able to do it, and even if CCP has people from bungie (who have yet to make a game for PS3) it will still take them years. So, after two to three years to get all of their PS3 optimizations done, and figure out how to take great advantage of the PS3 hardware, it will have been a waste, since no one will be using a ps3 any longer.
I understand that the PS3 isn't dead currently, but no new people are going to be coming to it. And over the coming months, people are only going to be leaving.
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1066
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Posted - 2013.12.11 04:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
DusterBuster wrote:
One of my major points is that it will take loads of money, time, and effort for CCP to truly optimize Dust for the PS3. It took top tier PS3 exclusive studios (such as mad dog) years to be able to do it, and even if CCP has people from bungie (who have yet to make a game for PS3) it will still take them years. So, after two to three years to get all of their PS3 optimizations done, and figure out how to take great advantage of the PS3 hardware, it will have been a waste, since no one will be using a ps3 any longer.
I understand that the PS3 isn't dead currently, but no new people are going to be coming to it. And over the coming months, people are only going to be leaving.
Also - My Gamma Testing point had nothing to do with the PS4.
Optimisation is always riddled with increasingly diminishing returns the further you optimize. The question is where Dust lies in terms of optimization.
Sure, it took Naughty Dog (i assume you mean these guys since Mad Dog didn't ring a bell with me) a load of time and money for The Last of Us but they did push the console to its very limits. Unless you need to look like a AAA title (i don't think Dust needs to) you can get away with a fraction of the cost and get acceptable results.
When the PS3/UE3 shows signs of becoming an untenable hindrance, gradually switch more and more devs to the PS4 port so that the current product is of the highest quality possible and "down times" are minimized. I do expect the current PS3 client to expand well into the lifecycle of the PS4 with the latter just looking a "tad" prettier (meaning that need and cost for PS4 optimization is limited because it has more performance to waste) before support for the former is cut entirely, years down the road. I think most of dusts burning issues have little if anything to do with the PS3's tech so we're not there yet in my book.
I misread the gamma testing as "halt development for PS3, re-release on PS4 in three months" or something along those lines, so yeah. 
I remain sceptical of the notion that un-releasing the game is helping much, besides for marketing reasons of which there is none to speak of anyways. Players are now used to see their stuff shifted around dramatically all the time. Only consequence is a handfull of "respec plox" threads every now and then. I expected nothing else of a CCP game and everyone around before and during release already saw the rough times ahead. Damage is done. No point in making any more fuzz about it imho.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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DusterBuster
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
335
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 14:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wow, thanks for the taking the time to provide some actual constructive feedback, it seems to be a rarity these days. You bring up some very good points, but of course I am going to counter them with some of my own.
Yes, I was talking about Naughty Dog (Have no idea why I was screwing up all of my names last night, but Mad Sansha Dog Trials could be a good name  ), and I was more thinking about Uncharted rather than the Last of Us. Look at Uncharted 1 (released near the beginning of PS3's life cycle) compared to Uncharted 3 (released near the end). The differences in performance are staggering.
Now, I don't want or expect Dust to look like Crysis, but the fact is that right now it looks subpar, and still can't even manage a steady 30 FPS, let alone 60. So, that is where my criticism comes from, not from the looks, but from the lag. I do not expect CCP to optimize to levels that happened in The Last of Us, but something is currently not working right, especially considering there are no ridiculous attributes in a game of Dust (map size and amount of players are very average).
For Gamma Testing, I based my wishes off from multiple reviews around the net. Dust 514 received pretty horrible reviews, because even though some of them realized it is going to be improved, right now it is not very good. Calling it "in testing" would be an obvious way to show people that it is in fact being improved. At least until the core of the game is done (all racial variants, etc.). And even if nothing else is taken from this, I really want a monthly roadmap to be implemented. Even with all of the complaints on the forums, CCP still gives us very little information. I am not asking for step by step updates, but at least saying "Looking at options for scout balance" gives the community some idea what is going on.
And finally: CCP is going to have to abandon UE3 and the PS3 at some point. My thoughts are: Why should they put all of their effort into something that statistically speaking is very unlikely to bring in any new customers. Rather, it would probably be better to just adopt the new "thing" quickly, to minimize wasted time.
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.
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