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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5694	Posted - 2013.12.08 22:29:00 - [1] - Quote OK, so 1.7 patch notes have been out for a while and after a long cool down from all the heated debates about the depleted shield recharge delay penalty for shield extenders, I decided to look at the patch notes carefully and ran the numbers on my own to see for myself whether this is really a nerf for scouts in general. According to the 1.7 Patch Notes: Quote: Modules/Equipment Added shield extender 3% penalty - stacking slows down the depleted shield recharge delay. Let's assume we are using the Scout Mk.0 (Minmatar) which has the following base stats: Depleted Shield Recharge Delay = 8 Seconds * High Slots = 3 Low Slots = 2 For comparison sake will also throw in the Scout GK.0 (Gallente) which has the following stats: Depleted Shield Recharge Delay = 8 seconds * High Slots = 1 Low Slots = 4 * - NOTE: The penalty in question here covers only DEPLETED shield recharge delay. All suits have a second shield REGULAR recharge delay which is generally faster if your shields are NOT completely depleted. In the case of these two scout suits, that's 4 seconds each. This means that the shield stacking penalty does NOT apply to when the shield is NOT depleted but is just somewhat damaged. Since the penalty is not detailing anything in regards to tiers of the shield mods, we'll assume for now that the 3% penalty applies to ALL tiers and that the first module is unaffected since the patch note is talking about stacking. Anyways, back to the scout suits. Let's say you slap on 3 shield extenders on the Scout Mk.0. This brings the Depleted delay to 8.48 seconds total. That's just an extra half second delay. Even if the first module suffers a penalty, the most you'll get is 8.74 seconds. Since I run this suit very often as I use Minmatar, I very seldom use shield extenders and rely more on speed, surprise tactics, and overall stealth. This means that often times I only fit one shield extender at the most which also means I don't get any penalty at all to the Depleted delay. Even with the first module affected, I only suffer a delay of 8.24 seconds at the most. That said, when you look at the scout Gk.0 suit, it's no different. But then again, on this suit it doesn't matter especially considering that with the bonus to passive scan range which, when maxed out, can enable you to see up to at least 74 meters with with the stacking penalties of the Range Amplifiers. The Scout Gk.0 in this case will enable you to dictate the terms of the engagement before the enemy even gets close. Besides, there is only one high slot with this suit and the Gallente Scout is mostly an armor tanker anyways. Again, remember what I said about the REGULAR shield delay of 4 seconds which is NOT affected by the shield extender penalty. If you can get out with even 1 point of shield left on your suit, you'll only need 4 seconds to fully recover. Now that I am looking at this, this is not really a nerf in my eyes. Even if it is technically a nerf to scouts, it's marginal at best and hardly noticeable. However... I want to make it absolutely clear that this whole thing doesn't excuse the fact that scouts are marginalized in general by other suits. The only thing these scout suits are good for nowadays is to just reach the objectives first and that only lasts for the first 3 minutes of the match. After that, you might as well just switch to a logi or assault since they can now do everything else the scout can do except have longer passive scan and avoid proto scanners. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5944	Posted - 2013.12.08 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote Good post. The shield nerf isn't significant - but it's one more against what is by far the worst off class in the game at the moment. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 81	Posted - 2013.12.08 23:45:00 - [3] - Quote Thanks for the sanity through maths post. Change simply seems to be an attempt to get players to equip shield support modules instead of just stacking extenders, much as you need to equip repair modules if you're using plate.
echo47 Minmatar Republic 103	Posted - 2013.12.08 23:50:00 - [4] - Quote I realize that it is nto significant but why? if it so slight that it is hardly noticable why implement the change? I would rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2189	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:09:00 - [5] - Quote echo47 wrote: I realize that it is nto significant but why? if it so slight that it is hardly noticable why implement the change? It's more a way to discourage hybrid tanking by penalising solely stacking shield extenders in the high slots. Even deeper than this, and I'm not sure if CCP saw this, but it changes the mentality of shield tanking. Shields don't simply become that extra hp before armour, it's a vital stat that you have to monitor rigorously. Now, because DEPLETED recharge delay is increasing, players will keep a close watch on their shields and make sure they get out of combat before shields are depleted. Instead of running in the open this change encourages players to use cover, play tactically, etc. I have seem some shield tankers grasp this concept very well but for the most part, players simply use it as a buffer zone for when they run out in the open hoping they aren't killed, with no regard for how important that shield regeneration is. 20hp/s is no laughing matter, and the sooner it kicks in the better. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5701	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:31:00 - [6] - Quote Post updated. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5701	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:35:00 - [7] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: echo47 wrote: I realize that it is nto significant but why? if it so slight that it is hardly noticable why implement the change? It's more a way to discourage hybrid tanking by penalising solely stacking shield extenders in the high slots. Even deeper than this, and I'm not sure if CCP saw this, but it changes the mentality of shield tanking. Shields don't simply become that extra hp before armour, it's a vital stat that you have to monitor rigorously. Now, because DEPLETED recharge delay is increasing, players will keep a close watch on their shields and make sure they get out of combat before shields are depleted. Instead of running in the open this change encourages players to use cover, play tactically, etc. I have seem some shield tankers grasp this concept very well but for the most part, players simply use it as a buffer zone for when they run out in the open hoping they aren't killed, with no regard for how important that shield regeneration is. 20hp/s is no laughing matter, and the sooner it kicks in the better. Let's also not forget that compared to the medium frames and their 20hp/sec shield recharge rate, the scouts have a 40hp/sec shield recharge rate. And since most of the scouts have a base shield of 120hp, those shields gets fully recharged in 3 seconds once the 8.48 seconds are up (4 seconds if you still have any shield remaining). OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2862	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:36:00 - [8] - Quote +1 great post. IN MY WORLD, i can only hope this SLIGHT nerf is to justify a future heavy buff to shield tankers... Again, i can only hope... MY Mk.0 scouts is, officially dead WELCOME! TO ARMORED MED514 : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1565076#post1565076
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2217	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:37:00 - [9] - Quote Unless there's sweeping changes elsewhere this will do absolutely nothing to actually discourage dual tanking. It just makes shields worse than they were. It's really that simple. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5704	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:41:00 - [10] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Unless there's sweeping changes elsewhere this will do absolutely nothing to actually discourage dual tanking. It just makes shields worse than they were. It's really that simple. We'll first have to wait and see how much of a difference an extra 1.2 seconds of depleted delay for some mediums can make in terms of gameplay. There are some factors we need to consider here such as gameplay behavior and the dynamics of how Dust players adapt to it. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2218	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:47:00 - [11] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Unless there's sweeping changes elsewhere this will do absolutely nothing to actually discourage dual tanking. It just makes shields worse than they were. It's really that simple. We'll first have to wait and see how much of a difference an extra 1.2 seconds of depleted delay for some mediums can make in terms of gameplay. There are some factors we need to consider here such as gameplay behavior and the dynamics of how Dust players adapt to it. There might be a few players out there that will have success losing a plate to fit a regulator, but it won't be noticeable. It might help roof campers a little. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2192	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:48:00 - [12] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Unless there's sweeping changes elsewhere this will do absolutely nothing to actually discourage dual tanking. It just makes shields worse than they were. It's really that simple. Except there have been sweeping changes. The benefits of solely armour tanking means damage mods in high slots, which means at longer ranges (namely the ranges of the two new rifles), you'll be taking people down faster and harder. The benefits of solely shield tanking means regulators to reduce the delays which, at longer ranges again, means the damage you take can quickly be negated by getting out of range. Stacking armour instead means you lose the advantage of speed tanking, which I predict will grow more popular as people start fighting at longer ranges and it becomes harder to track moving targets running perpendicular to you. This is all assuming combat will move backwards, though. Perhaps it won't, but I have played some games where the enemy team and ours have been situated on two hills (that map with the two flat topped pyramids, with objective B between them) and are trading fire across those gaps. High base HP means nothing in situations like this, only regeneration and damage output. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5704	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:51:00 - [13] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: This is all assuming combat will move away from close quarters, though. Perhaps it won't, but I have played some games where the enemy team and ours have been situated on two hills (that map with the two flat topped pyramids, with objective B between them) and are trading fire across those gaps. High base HP means nothing in situations like this, only regeneration and damage output. I do agree that I have seen plenty of situations like that where shield regen and armor regen become critical to a stand off like that. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Top Men. 354	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:54:00 - [14] - Quote Have they said it will not affect the first module? That's so backwards from armor plating and just encourages dual tanking. The delay hurts those who cannot stack lots of Extenders like the scout or Gal Assault (if it hits 1st mod). Shield tankers who attach them have lesser chance to be depleted because their mass of Shield hp so the Cal Logi and Assault are probably fine. Also this kills new players because they cannot stack PRO Extenders and anything below PRO is useless. Thus they have less shields and are likely to be depleted a lot. So proportionally this Nerf scratches dual tankers (only if it hits first mod) and hardly affects true high level shield tankers. The recharger/energizer mods take a hit because they remove shield hp making you more likely to be depleted. But scouts and new players will be hit hardest. CCP hates us.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5704	Posted - 2013.12.09 00:57:00 - [15] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: Have they said it will not affect the first module? That's so backwards from armor plating and just encourages dual tanking. The delay hurts those who cannot stack lots of Extenders like the scout or Gal Assault (if it hits 1st mod). Shield tankers who attach them have lesser chance to be depleted because their mass of Shield hp so the Cal Logi and Assault are probably fine. Also this kills new players because they cannot stack PRO Extenders and anything below PRO is useless. Thus they have less shields and are likely to be depleted a lot. So proportionally this Nerf scratches dual tankers (only if it hits first mod) and hardly affects true high level shield tankers. The recharger/energizer mods take a hit because they remove shield hp making you more likely to be depleted. But scouts and new players will be hit hardest. CCP hates us. We are not 100% sure if the penalty doesn't affect the first mod. Like I said, this is just an assumption. Even if the first mod is affected, the shield tanking scouts won't suffer much but the CalLogis will definitely feel the penalties. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5717	Posted - 2013.12.09 02:09:00 - [16] - Quote Bump OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1229	Posted - 2013.12.09 02:51:00 - [17] - Quote Just wanted to hit on one point Maken: Maken Tosch wrote: Since the penalty is not detailing anything in regards to tiers of the shield mods, we'll assume for now that the 3% penalty applies to ALL tiers and that the first module is unaffected since the patch note is talking about stacking. If you only equip one shield extender, you WILL get the 3% penalty. It works the same as the speed penalty on armor plates. The wording in the patch notes means that the penalty is not stacking penalized (I know that sounds weird): if you use two extenders, your shields recharge ~1.061x the original rate, not at 1.06x the rate. If your original depleted recharge rate = 8 seconds, it will in all likelihood work out like this: No module: 8 sec 1 Extender: 8.24s 2 Extenders: 8.49s 3 Extenders: 8.74s 4 Extenders: 9s 5 Extenders: 9.27s That's how CCP does math in their games. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 200/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5725	Posted - 2013.12.09 04:35:00 - [18] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Just wanted to hit on one point Maken: Maken Tosch wrote: Since the penalty is not detailing anything in regards to tiers of the shield mods, we'll assume for now that the 3% penalty applies to ALL tiers and that the first module is unaffected since the patch note is talking about stacking. If you only equip one shield extender, you WILL get the 3% penalty. It works the same as the speed penalty on armor plates. The wording in the patch notes means that the penalty is not stacking penalized (I know that sounds weird): if you use two extenders, your shields recharge ~1.061x the original rate, not at 1.06x the rate. If your original depleted recharge rate = 8 seconds, it will in all likelihood work out like this: No module: 8 sec 1 Extender: 8.24s 2 Extenders: 8.49s 3 Extenders: 8.74s 4 Extenders: 9s 5 Extenders: 9.27s That's how CCP does math in their games. Thank you for pointing that out for me and everybody else. Again, the penalty is probably not going to be noticeable when the update releases since scouts don't use that many shield extenders anyways. But medium frames will surely notice it. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5734	Posted - 2013.12.09 13:34:00 - [19] - Quote Bump for everyone to see. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Bad Heal Pradox One Proficiency V. 96	Posted - 2013.12.09 13:49:00 - [20] - Quote I play a Cali Assault and I will assure you that I will not drop my armor plate for a regulator. In fact I will down grade my sidearm and increase my plate usage.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5771	Posted - 2013.12.09 13:52:00 - [21] - Quote Bad Heal wrote: I play a Cali Assault and I will assure you that I will not drop my armor plate for a regulator. In fact I will down grade my sidearm and increase my plate usage. NO DUAL TANKING FOR YOU! OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
dustwaffle Xer Cloud Consortium 720	Posted - 2013.12.10 04:55:00 - [22] - Quote Have you also taken into consideration that the suit most affected by this (Caldari logi) has less CPU than its counterparts, and therefore would struggle to fit shield regulators (which incidentally take up more CPU) to make up for the penalty? In any case, feels more of like a case of: "here's a penalty for stacking shield extenders, you can compensate by putting on shield regulators, and compensate for lack of CPU to fit said extenders by putting in CPU mods. Don't worry, we made sure you had enough slots to compensate for fitting CPU mods so that you can fit regulators so that you can stack shield extenders" Kind of a roundabout way to achieve something IMO. No worries though, at least now we can make use of the previously useless bonus that was shield regulators. Hey, it's not 3 nerfs to the Caldari logi in the space of 4 months, it's still 2 since you get to use regulators woohoo
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5771	Posted - 2013.12.10 05:10:00 - [23] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: Have you also taken into consideration that the suit most affected by this (Caldari logi) has less CPU than its counterparts, and therefore would struggle to fit shield regulators (which incidentally take up more CPU) to make up for the penalty? In any case, feels more of like a case of: "here's a penalty for stacking shield extenders, you can compensate by putting on shield regulators, and compensate for lack of CPU to fit said extenders by putting in CPU mods. Don't worry, we made sure you had enough slots to compensate for fitting CPU mods so that you can fit regulators so that you can stack shield extenders" Kind of a roundabout way to achieve something IMO. No worries though, at least now we can make use of the previously useless bonus that was shield regulators. Hey, it's not 3 nerfs to the Caldari logi in the space of 4 months, it's still 2 since you get to use regulators woohoo Does that account for maxed out core skills which help out with fitting requirements? OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
dustwaffle Xer Cloud Consortium 722	Posted - 2013.12.10 05:19:00 - [24] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: dustwaffle wrote: Have you also taken into consideration that the suit most affected by this (Caldari logi) has less CPU than its counterparts, and therefore would struggle to fit shield regulators (which incidentally take up more CPU) to make up for the penalty? In any case, feels more of like a case of: "here's a penalty for stacking shield extenders, you can compensate by putting on shield regulators, and compensate for lack of CPU to fit said extenders by putting in CPU mods. Don't worry, we made sure you had enough slots to compensate for fitting CPU mods so that you can fit regulators so that you can stack shield extenders" Kind of a roundabout way to achieve something IMO. No worries though, at least now we can make use of the previously useless bonus that was shield regulators. Hey, it's not 3 nerfs to the Caldari logi in the space of 4 months, it's still 2 since you get to use regulators woohoo Does that account for maxed out core skills which help out with fitting requirements? Yes. I have maxed out Electronics skills, core upgrades, light weapon operation (3% to CPU usage of LW), nanocircuitry (for the ninja CPU bonus skills hah) and pretty much everything that reduces CPU usage. Still required to fit CPU mods on all my fits, albeit can get away with basic/militia CPU mods now. My point is, the suit that received a double nerf is suffering from CPU already. Plus, Caldari assaults get a bonus to Shield extenders, and yet are penalised by using them? Doesn't really make sense now, does it? I do get that armor mods have a penalty already, but the delay thing doesn't really make sense. Stacking shields should, in line with mechanics of EVE, give you better recharge per second, assuming time to full shields is the same regardless of how much shield you have. In fact the whole mechanic is screwy and inconsistent.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5771	Posted - 2013.12.10 05:28:00 - [25] - Quote In that case, it wouldn't hurt to give the Cal Logis a bit of a CPU buff to compensate. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
dustwaffle Xer Cloud Consortium 722	Posted - 2013.12.10 05:48:00 - [26] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: In that case, it wouldn't hurt to give the Cal Logis a bit of a CPU buff to compensate. Back to pre-nerf levels would be good. Otherwise, less of a severe buff to bring them more in line with their counterparts would be good too (FYI, all logis apart from Amarr have the same number of total equipment/mid/low slots i.e. 12, yet Caldari gets less CPU to make use of those slots)


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