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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
379
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Posted - 2013.12.05 17:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:Years ago, I played Final Fantasy XI Online. Like all FF games, you gain experience points and you level up.
Your equipment was level specific. You got some gear at level 10, some at 12, some at 18, etc. Naturally, a high-level character would kick ass when facing off with a low-level character.
As people started leveling up multiple characters, they found themselves running around with a level 10 character and all their level 50+ buddies. They couldn't fight and level with their buddies, because the level-50 monsters would eat their level 10s for breakfast.
Then FF introduced Level Sync. This would, temporarily, reduce the level of all characters in the group down to the level of the lowest character. So.... a level 50 character could level sync down to level 10, and group with a buddy's level 10 character.
TL; DR.... Final Fantasy allowed people to artificially lower their level in order to improve certain game-play mechanics.
I think this should be adopted for Dust.
Rather than just have pub matches (in general), there should be Basic, Advanced and Proto matches... with the lower level matches imposing a gear limit on drop suits.
So....when you join a "Basic" match, all your dropsuit fittings that have even one Advanced or Proto module become unusable for that match. Likewise, if you try and join an Advanced match, any suit with proto gear on it becomes unusable.
Proto matches would naturally allow all fittings. But, for those brave enough to run fully Advanced gear loadouts in Proto-tier matches... why not increase the WP earned for kills.... increased by 50%, so 75 WP for a kill, for example.
You could also scale the cash payouts... people get paid more running in the proto games then they do in Advanced or Basic games (as fittings are more expensive).
Loot tables could scale as well.... higher chance of getting proto or officer loot playing at the higher levels, for example.
Lastly, perhaps a closer tie between WP and money earned. People shouldn't get a full payout for sitting behind the redline and going AFK.... if you get between 0 and 150 WP you get 50% of the possible payout. If you get between 151 and 400 WP you get 75% of the payout, and 401+ you get 100% of the payout.
This match hierarchy would allow people to avoid proto-stomps if they so choose, but reward those who take a swing at the proto games.
It also reduces the reward to AFK... people need to participate in pub matches to make their ISK (even if it is just throwing down uplinks or nanohives).
So.... thoughts?
EVE: Bitter-vet, born 2005
DUST: Closed-beta vet: Always hopeful, frequently disappointed.
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
263
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Posted - 2013.12.05 18:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yet another one of these threads....
No. Don't just fixate on player equipment. It's only one factor, and not the biggest one.
Who cares what some sniper has to say
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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
379
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Posted - 2013.12.05 18:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Yet another one of these threads....
No. Don't just fixate on player equipment. It's only one factor, and not the biggest one.
This game requires new players to thrive in order for this game to survive. Getting proto stomped in pub matches only discourages them and they'll quit... and really, can you blame them?
Give lower-skilled (and lower geared) players somewhere that they can work on their confidence and build up their SP.
Don't forget.... one Complex damage mod is worth more than 3 basic mods... and people stack complex mods.
Also, a proto suit can easily fit a couple of plates and a full rack of damage mods.... making it really time consuming for a entry level, low SP character to get a kill... while a proto fitted guy can melt a noob in just a couple of shots.
Yes, skill is a key factor.... but one that is getting ignored because of gear imbalance. This suggestion is one that doesn't affect you in the slightest... if you want to run proto gear, there would still be FW, PC, and the Proto-level pub matches.
If you're just worried that a change like this would take away your easy noob kills... that just reveals you as a douche and a bully.
EVE: Bitter-vet, born 2005
DUST: Closed-beta vet: Always hopeful, frequently disappointed.
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1047
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Posted - 2013.12.05 18:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:
[...]Give lower-skilled (and lower geared)[...]
This invoked equivalency is simply not true.
Get a well organized squad to field only their BPO suits/vehicles and the result will be largely the same. They will still use their equipment in ways a new player can't even imagine. They will still advance tactically and with a well balanced squad composition. They will still know all these little details about the maps, ranges and whatnot that make everything they do a little more efficient than when the new player does it.
Yes, matchmaking is bad right now. Yes, gear is a part of it.
No, limiting gear alone will not solve anything and is also somewhat counter the point of these tiers in the first place.
Addendum: CCP said they a dissatisfied with the current matchmaking. They are currently working on a system that evaluates the combined power of teams without focusing on any single metric or any single player. That way everyone can count having a reasonable distribution of new and seasoned players in their team.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
379
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Posted - 2013.12.05 20:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote:
[...]Give lower-skilled (and lower geared)[...]
This invoked equivalency is simply not true. Get a well organized squad to field only their BPO suits/vehicles and the result will be largely the same. They will still use their equipment in ways a new player can't even imagine. They will still advance tactically and with a well balanced squad composition. They will still know all these little details about the maps, ranges and whatnot that make everything they do a little more efficient than when the new player does it. Yes, matchmaking is bad right now. Yes, gear is a part of it. No, limiting gear alone will not solve anything and is also somewhat counter the point of these tiers in the first place. Addendum: CCP said they a dissatisfied with the current matchmaking. They are currently working on a system that evaluates the combined power of teams without focusing on any single metric or any single player. That way everyone can count having a reasonable distribution of new and seasoned players in their team.
There is precedent for gear-limitation at CCP... in EVE, certain complexes won't permit ships over a certain size from entering through their warp gate.
For example... I don't think you can take a battleship into a DED complex if the complex is below level 4....
I agree... not ideal.... but a temp fix that could improve things somewhat, is relatively easy to implement, and could be swapped out down the line when a more permanent fix is implemented.
EVE: Bitter-vet, born 2005
DUST: Closed-beta vet: Always hopeful, frequently disappointed.
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Severus Smith
Caldari State
433
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Posted - 2013.12.05 20:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote:
[...]Give lower-skilled (and lower geared)[...]
This invoked equivalency is simply not true. Get a well organized squad to field only their BPO suits/vehicles and the result will be largely the same. They will still use their equipment in ways a new player can't even imagine. They will still advance tactically and with a well balanced squad composition. They will still know all these little details about the maps, ranges and whatnot that make everything they do a little more efficient than when the new player does it. Yes, matchmaking is bad right now. Yes, gear is a part of it. No, limiting gear alone will not solve anything and is also somewhat counter the point of these tiers in the first place. Addendum: CCP said they a dissatisfied with the current matchmaking. They are currently working on a system that evaluates the combined power of teams without focusing on any single metric or any single player. That way everyone can count having a reasonable distribution of new and seasoned players in their team. I don't agree, gear does play a part. Many Complex mods are 3x more powerful than their Standard counterpart. Add in the fact that most Proto suits have 3x the amount of slots and you end up with Proto players having 9x the level of gear of Militia / Standard players.
Right now we're giving these new players Muskets and telling them to face off against enemy squads equipped with M16s. It's just not balanced. Yes, extremely skilled players will always slaughter inexperienced players no matter what. Just like how a few Force Recon guys with spoons will slaughter a contingent of musketeers. But that's not the point. For the average player on both side (noobs and vets) the balance is off. Pubs shouldn't be one sided hell stomps where new players learn how it feels to deep throat a Duvolle 20x a match. That's what FW and PC are for.
If nothing else implement a single match type that is limited to Militia & Standard only, with all the rest being the current "anything goes". That would help. Something so that once a new player exits the Battle Academy they can go to get some more experience without instantly dying to six guys each running 5x Complex Mods and a Duvolle. |
Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1047
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:I don't agree, gear does play a part. I explicitly said that it does. Severus Smith wrote:Many Complex mods are 3x more powerful than their Standard counterpart. Add in the fact that most Proto suits have 3x the amount of slots and you end up with Proto players having 9x the level of gear of Militia / Standard players.
Right now we're giving these new players Muskets and telling them to face off against enemy squads equipped with M16s. It's just not balanced. Yes, extremely skilled players will always slaughter inexperienced players no matter what. Just like how a few Force Recon guys with spoons will slaughter a contingent of musketeers. But that's not the point. For the average player on both side (noobs and vets) the balance is off. Pubs shouldn't be one sided hell stomps where new players learn how it feels to deep throat a Duvolle 20x a match. That's what FW and PC are for.
We agree on pubstomping being bad, at least in the current consistency. I don't see the problem only in the gear though.
How much bullets does a triple modded Duvolle need to chew through 800eHP, compared to a double enhanced dmg modded GEK? 5, maybe 6 less? Of what consequence is the difference between 400eHP and 800eHP when the most used weapons can remove that in a second or less?
This differences, while massive on paper, boil down to fractions of a second -so small that we are looking at the difference between noticing that you've been attacked or not, not wether you can still react to it. It only starts to become significant when players are of otherwise similar ability. Limiting gear cannot guarantee that. I believe it only removes the lesser of two factors.
Most of the time, the one that is taken by surprise, outnumbered, hardcountered or not well positioned to take cover immediately, dies. Wether it took you .5 seconds longer to kill him doesn't matter. Wether you'd have survived even a whole second longer, again, chances are it wouldn't even matter.
Severus Smith wrote:
If nothing else implement a single match type that is limited to Militia & Standard only, with all the rest being the current "anything goes". That would help. Something so that once a new player exits the Battle Academy they can go to get some more experience without instantly dying to six guys each running 5x Complex Mods and a Duvolle.
That's as far as i'd go but even then. Nothing prevents the 6man squad to prepare insanely efficient STD fits and continue to obliterate new players. The more gear levels are normalized, the more important skill and tactics will become. It might even just change the reason why new players are being destroyed, not the actual fact that they are.
The biggest flaw of this general concept of limiting gear is not that it couldn't help. It likely will to some extent. It's that it doesn't even begin to adress the more important issues:
- Even ignoring gear: Why are experienced PC squads thrown against a team of random blueberries in pubs?
- What is the point to supposedly "special" high end gear, when a growing portion of the playerbase has no trouble wasting it on inconsequential matches 23,5/7 to pad their k/d or w/l or even just out of convenience?
- Why does the game give them more damn ISK than they can reasonably spend on current sinks?
Again. Gear differences are a factor. But I feel they might be also an excuse to make a complex issue look simple and fix only the most obvious symptom but not the underlying problem.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1047
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote:
[...]Give lower-skilled (and lower geared)[...]
This invoked equivalency is simply not true. Get a well organized squad to field only their BPO suits/vehicles and the result will be largely the same. They will still use their equipment in ways a new player can't even imagine. They will still advance tactically and with a well balanced squad composition. They will still know all these little details about the maps, ranges and whatnot that make everything they do a little more efficient than when the new player does it. Yes, matchmaking is bad right now. Yes, gear is a part of it. No, limiting gear alone will not solve anything and is also somewhat counter the point of these tiers in the first place. Addendum: CCP said they a dissatisfied with the current matchmaking. They are currently working on a system that evaluates the combined power of teams without focusing on any single metric or any single player. That way everyone can count having a reasonable distribution of new and seasoned players in their team. There is precedent for gear-limitation at CCP... in EVE, certain complexes won't permit ships over a certain size from entering through their warp gate. For example... I don't think you can take a battleship into a DED complex if the complex is below level 4.... I agree... not ideal.... but a temp fix that could improve things somewhat, is relatively easy to implement, and could be swapped out down the line when a more permanent fix is implemented. That is true, but this is about preventing players from acing the plexes in complete immunity. NPC missions have the same restrictions and i think this is not in place to protect players. It rather enforces a certain threshold of risk.
A better comparison are low/null sec restricted modules/ships like cynos and dictors. But those would not be similar to a PRO fit versus MLT fit either.
It would be more akin of one side getting 32+ players, 12 HAVs and unlimited precision strikes, seemingly out of nowhere.
Hotdrops and bombing runs are on a whole different level of "unfair".
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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