DUST Search - Devs should observe some PC matches

Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:

Alaika Arbosa wrote:

One problem....

Actually inviting a dev into squad for the PC match will skew the results. The team who invites them will obviously be on best behavior (regardless of if they are the worst offenders any other time) and the other team could get wind of the dev presence (resulting in aforementioned best behavior) ultimately leading to no real progress on the matter.

Solution: CCP observes PC matches in the "Big Brother" (1984 style, not trash TV style) method, selecting matches at random or perhaps with the help of some anonymous snitches. No one would be aware of if they are being observed or not. Those paranoid about "Is CCP watching and going to nerf my 'I WIN' button?" may change their behavior with no real intervention on CCP's part. Those who don't care/realize they're being watched will go ahead with their "bad" behavior, giving CCP an unobstructed view of the "bad" or "gamebreaking" behavior.

Either way, problem solved.

Let me explain the process, I've been in a few of these, well my corp at least.

CCP contacts 2 corps willing to scrim it out. They organize a date, time. They invite you to a special chat for the test, you invite your 15 players, and the other team does the same. Each team has a dev.

They basically tell people act like it's a real PC game, and IF BOTH TEAMS are competitive, nobody will be on a "best behavior" scene. It's up to CCP to select the competitive corps, not the semi casual ones that play like it's a pub.

They start the game, then about 10 minutes into it, they ask both corps to come in the middle of the map, and go balls to the wall. They record frame rates and whatever data they get during the clusterf*ck.

They then stop the match before it finishes, so that nobody lose gear.

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Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 800	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:56:00 - [1] - Quote A few weeks ago I grabbed the opportunity to play a pub match in squad with CCP's Logibro and FoxFour. Up front- that was great fun and great community interaction, 10/10 would listen to Aussie accent again. The other fantastic thing about Logibro's play-with-a-dev outings is that it shows CCPers getting real time experience of how the game's balance feels on the live server. In the past it seemed somewhat doubtful that the devs were getting enough hands-on time with the game judging by how long it took to push certain changes to terrible imbalances through (I'm looking at you dropship missiles). While I was playing in that squad the topic of conversation happened to come around to forge gunners sitting on towers. This is the most pervasive tactic employed in PC matches second only to uplink spam. For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Imagine my dismay (though sadly there was little shock involved) when FoxFour said that he hadn't heard about this particular tactic. I'm not trying to call out Foxy- it's not even his job to balance things like that and True Grit have obviously worked their asses off pushing the Fac War changes as quickly as they have. What's more important here is that his response illustrates the front end of a back end trend from CCP: (1) A contentious issue crops up in the competitive parts of the game (2) CCP does nothing about it for months (3) Changes are either enacted due to something wholly unrelated or else because the tactic finally leaks into public match play (4) PC players are left with glaring issues for months and public matches eventually get dragged down the tubes as well Remember, forge gunners camping on rooftops have been a staple of competitive play since May and it has taken until December to see any real changes to that dynamic. Remote explosives, dropship missiles, Caldari logis, the list goes on... The issue isn't that these problems arose- they're bound to happen in a game as complex as Dust. The real issue here is that the high-octane environment of PC matches serves as a fantastic weather vane for identifying balance and performance issues that will affect the entire community. That feedback is getting either dismissed out of hand or lost where it could be extremely helpful. I'm here to point out that everything is much more real when it's real. If you had seen these forge gunners yourself you wouldn't wait around for more than 6 months to fix them, trust me. So here's the proposal: The last time CCP observed a handful of PC battles in-person performance issues that were affecting all parts of the game were identified and fixed in about 1 patch cycle. After that the observing deal went poof. It needs to become a routine part of CCP's feedback loop to observe battles in this way until a proper observer mode gets into Dust (Soon[tm] 2020). And that's it. There are some suggested details for the implementation below, but the gist is done. History and plain common sense have shown that this method works, it works fast, and the game's better off for it. It's just one of a myriad of ways we can stop blatant issues from languishing in feedback hell. TL;DR: Sometime's something's really broken, PC players identify it quickly, CCP don't do anything about it until it becomes an even more widespread issue. CCP need to observe some PC matches once in awhile. Format: 15 v 15 or 16 v 16 matches as necessary to fit a dev character to observe We know that CCP can do the above since they did it in the beta tournament Participant selection: Registration through an online form (help ticket style?) CCP selects pair of combatants as they see fit CPM used as sounding board to get good matchups Participants do not fight twice within some given amount of time (ie: once per month max) Requirements: Current participation in PC (or recent participation) by district ownership Minimum membership numbers Majority of team fielded is from own corporation Willingness to lose ISK on the battle - the ISK cost is part of how these things get played Frequency: Monthly if not bimonthly. Anything less the information flow just stinks. PC Coordinator for RISE of LEGION Have a pony
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 707	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:00:00 - [2] - Quote great idea I am happy to put a dev in my squad and bring into a PC match *Faction Channels for FW Staging* PIE Ground Control \| Caldari Hierarchy \| Turalyon \| Chosen Matari
ReGnYuM 1428	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:01:00 - [3] - Quote Slow ******* Clap If you never heard of ReGnYuM, you're neither Good or Relevant in Dust 514. KDR>ALL Sig Move: Figure 8 of Death
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 893	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:12:00 - [4] - Quote Awesome. I too really recommend that. If CCP could record matches as a 'video' or replay they could also evaluate far greater PC match amount, and also get rid of any fear of their presence affecting the real situation. +1. Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? The fix:
Crazy Cat Lady Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 19	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:15:00 - [5] - Quote Good suggestion about bringing CCPs attention to PC. However attention might best be focused on the severe lag and coms issues that are impacting PC matches. Forge gunners using a legitimate tactic is less the issue when you have multiple guys dropping out of a PC match due to lag. Fixing PC lag is priority so we can actually compete properly.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 808	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:21:00 - [6] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: Fixing PC lag is priority so we can actually compete properly. I agree wholeheartedly. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1301431#post1301431 I need to bump that thread as a matter of fact. These ideas go well together. I don't think it's possible that CCP could play a live test with the full lag experience and not want to adopt a baby seal to keep them sane while devoting the bulk of their attentions to fixing it. PC Coordinator for RISE of LEGION Have a pony

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 3134	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:31:00 - [7] - Quote Yeah we were doing these semi-regularly a while ago using fake PC battles and they proved extremely helpful. I will poke some devs about organizing more. CCP Nullarbor // Exotic Dancer // Team True Grit

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5791	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:35:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Yeah we were doing these semi-regularly a while ago using fake PC battles and they proved extremely helpful. I will poke some devs about organizing more. The point is you watching players doing it, not watching other devs do it. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 3134	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:38:00 - [9] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Yeah we were doing these semi-regularly a while ago using fake PC battles and they proved extremely helpful. I will poke some devs about organizing more. The point is you watching players doing it, not watching other devs do it. Yeah that is exactly what we did, filled a battle with experienced PC players and then a couple of developers with PS3 dev kits to record what went down. CCP Nullarbor // Exotic Dancer // Team True Grit

Soraya Xel Violent Intervention Top Men. 770	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:39:00 - [10] - Quote That'd be excellent. The fact that CCP players aren't allowed in PC matches is one of the most limiting factors on them experiencing what's wrong with the game. Top Men. - The DUST Arm of the CFC www.dust-gents.com Recruiting corporations and players now!

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1222	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:40:00 - [11] - Quote One problem.... Actually inviting a dev into squad for the PC match will skew the results. The team who invites them will obviously be on best behavior (regardless of if they are the worst offenders any other time) and the other team could get wind of the dev presence (resulting in aforementioned best behavior) ultimately leading to no real progress on the matter. Solution: CCP observes PC matches in the "Big Brother" (1984 style, not trash TV style) method, selecting matches at random or perhaps with the help of some anonymous snitches. No one would be aware of if they are being observed or not. Those paranoid about "Is CCP watching and going to nerf my 'I WIN' button?" may change their behavior with no real intervention on CCP's part. Those who don't care/realize they're being watched will go ahead with their "bad" behavior, giving CCP an unobstructed view of the "bad" or "gamebreaking" behavior. Either way, problem solved. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8346	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:46:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Yeah we were doing these semi-regularly a while ago using fake PC battles and they proved extremely helpful. I will poke some devs about organizing more. The point is you watching players doing it, not watching other devs do it. Yeah that is exactly what we did, filled a battle with experienced PC players and then a couple of developers with PS3 dev kits to record what went down. Awesome, definitely more of that if it went well, though you might want to consider getting a larger pool of players, and switching them up each time you decide to analyze battles. That way you have more points of view, and it's not just one groups philosophy or practice that ends up guiding your decisions, but if you see common trends amongst the top players, then you'd have a better idea of what's good tactics, and what's actually broken Just my 2 ISK, awesome to hear that you're doing this at all Win ISK / Vids / O7
Panoscape BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 169	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:53:00 - [13] - Quote Ya know... there are places you can go with a triple damage mod charged sniper riffle where they can't hide from you. I like making heavy's dance, it's fun to watch... then they die. Think about it, then get up there and take them out. Stop calling for game fixes when all it takes is different tactics.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2724	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:55:00 - [14] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Actually, i get Forge Guns Snipers QUITE FREQUENTLY, vs K.E.Q that is... Support SCOUTS : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124408&find=unread
gobbybobbyy KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:01:00 - [15] - Quote Devs should just make Spy alts to observe the matches, that would work ;)
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 420	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:26:00 - [16] - Quote Oh my! How is the Devs disconnect from this game this strong? How did the Devs not know how much of a problem this has been? Oh my! Dusters - MMO WhenGäó ? CCP - MMO SoonGäó .
Timbo101 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 83	Posted - 2013.12.05 01:02:00 - [17] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Actually, i get Forge Guns Snipers QUITE FREQUENTLY, vs K.E.Q that is... Yea I think we may have been the first to do it. If not the first one of the first, we were doing it before it was cool...
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 34	Posted - 2013.12.05 01:27:00 - [18] - Quote I too look forward to seeing our Devs get proto stomped in High Sec and scan spammed. Of course, when they then drop a test Alt with max SP, scout frame with heavy eHP and a automatic amg firing breach scrambler pistol rounds... The look on the stompers faces will be interesting :) Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1335	Posted - 2013.12.05 02:09:00 - [19] - Quote Panoscape wrote: Ya know... there are places you can go with a triple damage mod charged sniper riffle where they can't hide from you. I like making heavy's dance, it's fun to watch... then they die. Think about it, then get up there and take them out. Stop calling for game fixes when all it takes is different tactics. did you even read the thread or just decide to vomit all over your keyboard.......... Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Oswald Rehnquist 779	Posted - 2013.12.05 04:55:00 - [20] - Quote Perhaps this might just be me, but this does not inspire confidence at all if tower forge gunning is a surprise to CCP, this spills into fw and pubs quite frequently too. In fact this tidbit is actually a little bit mind blowing, and makes me question the longevity of this game. This probably explains CCP's tendency to kick already down and hurting niche roles and suits due to their ignorance on actual gameplay, I think it would behoof them to actually see what they are creating. Below 28 dB

Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 720	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:02:00 - [21] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: I too look forward to seeing our Devs get proto stomped in High Sec and scan spammed. Of course, when they then drop a test Alt with max SP, scout frame with heavy eHP and a smg firing breach scrambler pistol rounds... The look on the stompers faces will be interesting :) They arent allowed to do that. They aren't allowed to use dev hacks at all, they have to use a character that they created, and put effort into developing like the rest of us. *CALDARI MASTER RACE*
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2487	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:03:00 - [22] - Quote Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't CCP record matches and play them back from any vantage point? Why would they have to participate?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution 2460	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:03:00 - [23] - Quote They have done all of this before. You guys are several months late.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2753	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:04:00 - [24] - Quote Timbo101 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Actually, i get Forge Guns Snipers QUITE FREQUENTLY, vs K.E.Q that is... Yea I think we may have been the first to do it. If not the first one of the first, we were doing it before it was cool... ITs never been cool WELCOME! TO ARMORED MED514 : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1565076#post1565076
Timbo101 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 83	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:11:00 - [25] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Timbo101 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Actually, i get Forge Guns Snipers QUITE FREQUENTLY, vs K.E.Q that is... Yea I think we may have been the first to do it. If not the first one of the first, we were doing it before it was cool... ITs never been cool Well that's subjective, so it's never been cool to you. Others may differ. Probably not, but they might... And when do you play KEQ?
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 129	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:38:00 - [26] - Quote Just here to bump the thread because I agree. Bye! The not logic bomb! Dust needs MAG comms channels!
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming EoN. 4561	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:50:00 - [27] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: One problem.... Actually inviting a dev into squad for the PC match will skew the results. The team who invites them will obviously be on best behavior (regardless of if they are the worst offenders any other time) and the other team could get wind of the dev presence (resulting in aforementioned best behavior) ultimately leading to no real progress on the matter. Solution: CCP observes PC matches in the "Big Brother" (1984 style, not trash TV style) method, selecting matches at random or perhaps with the help of some anonymous snitches. No one would be aware of if they are being observed or not. Those paranoid about "Is CCP watching and going to nerf my 'I WIN' button?" may change their behavior with no real intervention on CCP's part. Those who don't care/realize they're being watched will go ahead with their "bad" behavior, giving CCP an unobstructed view of the "bad" or "gamebreaking" behavior. Either way, problem solved. Let me explain the process, I've been in a few of these, well my corp at least. CCP contacts 2 corps willing to scrim it out. They organize a date, time. They invite you to a special chat for the test, you invite your 15 players, and the other team does the same. Each team has a dev. They basically tell people act like it's a real PC game, and IF BOTH TEAMS are competitive, nobody will be on a "best behavior" scene. It's up to CCP to select the competitive corps, not the semi casual ones that play like it's a pub. They start the game, then about 10 minutes into it, they ask both corps to come in the middle of the map, and go balls to the wall. They record frame rates and whatever data they get during the clusterfck. They then stop the match before it finishes, so that nobody lose gear. ( ._.) <('.'<) "There there Mr. Heavy, it's not your fault CCP doesn't care about you"*
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2755	Posted - 2013.12.05 05:51:00 - [28] - Quote Timbo101 wrote: Well that's subjective, so it's never been cool to you. Others may differ. Probably not, but they might... And when do you play KEQ? I've played BESIDES you in MAG. VALOR. (Aimbot Clan [ + ] ) I've played Vs KEQ in Pub matches and Seldomly while aiding Caldari State Soldiers in their FW. WELCOME! TO ARMORED MED514 : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1565076#post1565076
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 718	Posted - 2013.12.05 06:00:00 - [29] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Timbo101 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: For those who have the good fortune of having avoided FG camping, it goes like this: 1. Fly forge gunners to top of tower with dropships 2. Forge gunners use vantage point to smite puny mortals with the wrath of Zeus 3. If enemy dropship tries to get onto the top of the tower, you're holding a forge gun Actually, i get Forge Guns Snipers QUITE FREQUENTLY, vs K.E.Q that is... Yea I think we may have been the first to do it. If not the first one of the first, we were doing it before it was cool... ITs never been cool Abusing BAD MAP design to Kill enemies with impunity makes you a coward, not cool. the consensus seems to be its not cowardly if everyone does it. You should hear some of these cowards brag about their "skill"
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 718	Posted - 2013.12.05 06:07:00 - [30] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: One problem.... Actually inviting a dev into squad for the PC match will skew the results. The team who invites them will obviously be on best behavior (regardless of if they are the worst offenders any other time) and the other team could get wind of the dev presence (resulting in aforementioned best behavior) ultimately leading to no real progress on the matter. Solution: CCP observes PC matches in the "Big Brother" (1984 style, not trash TV style) method, selecting matches at random or perhaps with the help of some anonymous snitches. No one would be aware of if they are being observed or not. Those paranoid about "Is CCP watching and going to nerf my 'I WIN' button?" may change their behavior with no real intervention on CCP's part. Those who don't care/realize they're being watched will go ahead with their "bad" behavior, giving CCP an unobstructed view of the "bad" or "gamebreaking" behavior. Either way, problem solved. Let me explain the process, I've been in a few of these, well my corp at least. CCP contacts 2 corps willing to scrim it out. They organize a date, time. They invite you to a special chat for the test, you invite your 15 players, and the other team does the same. Each team has a dev. They basically tell people act like it's a real PC game, and IF BOTH TEAMS are competitive, nobody will be on a "best behavior" scene. It's up to CCP to select the competitive corps, not the semi casual ones that play like it's a pub. They start the game, then about 10 minutes into it, they ask both corps to come in the middle of the map, and go balls to the wall. They record frame rates and whatever data they get during the clusterf*ck. They then stop the match before it finishes, so that nobody lose gear. I don't know why anyone would expect any real work or data collection by CCP. Furthermore, no one really expects them to make sensible changes even if they collected useful data. We have all seen thesy guys in action, blueberries on the field and in the office.

Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 822	Posted - 2013.12.06 03:16:00 - [31] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: One problem.... Actually inviting a dev into squad for the PC match will skew the results. The team who invites them will obviously be on best behavior (regardless of if they are the worst offenders any other time) and the other team could get wind of the dev presence (resulting in aforementioned best behavior) ultimately leading to no real progress on the matter. Solution: CCP observes PC matches in the "Big Brother" (1984 style, not trash TV style) method, selecting matches at random or perhaps with the help of some anonymous snitches. No one would be aware of if they are being observed or not. Those paranoid about "Is CCP watching and going to nerf my 'I WIN' button?" may change their behavior with no real intervention on CCP's part. Those who don't care/realize they're being watched will go ahead with their "bad" behavior, giving CCP an unobstructed view of the "bad" or "gamebreaking" behavior. Either way, problem solved. They basically tell people act like it's a real PC game, and IF BOTH TEAMS are competitive, nobody will be on a "best behavior" scene. It's up to CCP to select the competitive corps, not the semi casual ones that play like it's a pub. That's actually why I suggested that CCP select the competitors with CPM oversight in the original post, rather than trying something more democratic. It's about the science. http://goo.gl/N3TN4o PC Coordinator for RISE of LEGION Have a pony
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 147	Posted - 2013.12.06 03:24:00 - [32] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: It's about the science. http://goo.gl/N3TN4o IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE! The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--


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