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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2101
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
"Protostomping" is a symptom of our terrible matchmaking. People who complain about mercs using the things they unlocked and paid for are pathetic.
Proper matchmaking is difficult when you have 5 people playing your game.
Sack up. |
Shokhann Echo
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
92
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
spoken like a true stomper
Void Echo's Alt
Back-up Profile
Back on main 12-20-2013
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2102
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shokhann Echo wrote:spoken like a true stomper
In what other game has anyone been criticized for using things they rightfully unlocked? It is the most embarrassing aspect of this community and I instantly lose respect for anyone who complains about it. That person is risking their own isk for the fitting and has earned the things they use.
Its like a person in a soma complaining about me derping them with a fully fitted maddy. Get off my dic.k |
Boot Booter
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
179
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with your point, but let me ask a question; how often do you play solo? Can you really blame people for being upset when they have an entire team of solos or small squads versus a team with a full proto squad? It's not even about gear. Gear just makes the poor matchmaking even more lopsided. The problem is we have QQ nubs and QQ vets arguing over what each 'should' do instead of blaming the problem itself, poor matchmaking. This is your point exactly so don't make yourself look like a fool by saying "sack up", it's just as bad as saying "stop protostomping".
Anyway with the new FW I forsee big pro squads leaving pubs alone for the sake of earning LP and cool stuffs. It should ease some of the stress of the newbies, as long as they stay away. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2102
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 00:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
This game operates on Risk vs. Reward.
If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process.
If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on.
If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking.
In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear.
edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore. |
Boot Booter
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
179
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah exactly, I agree. All I ask for is a bit of diplomacy from both sides of this 'argument'.
Start a new char and see how long it takes before you encounter a proto squad. Now try to understand how a newbie feels when he or she are repeatedly being set against people who outclass them in almost every way. Obviously they are going to naively blame the proto squad. We need to keep vets with vets and nubs with nubs. I mean honestly us vets don't have fun doing the stomping either. If you truly enjoy stomping newbies, you have issues.
In summary, yes it's nobodies fault except the scotty the matchmaker. But how well can he do with such a small player base. It's sad because poor matchmaking makes people not want to play and then makes matchmaking even worse. It's called a positive feedback loop. |
Zahle Undt
Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance
493
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Protostomping will never go away until we have PvE to give newberries a better way to grind out some ISK and SP. However, I will say that if I'm running a solo grind or just fitting in a match or 2 before I do something else I look at the teams before I deploy and if I see a whole corp squad without my side having one too (or at least a couple corp 3 to 4 man squads) or if I see a Nyain San squad (applies to ambush only for obvious reasons) I leave the match and hope for a better one next. Some simple forthought saves much frustration and ISK. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2102
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 00:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Yeah exactly, I agree. All I ask for is a bit of diplomacy from both sides of this 'argument'.
Start a new char and see how long it takes before you encounter a proto squad. Now try to understand how a newbie feels when he or she are repeatedly being set against people who outclass them in almost every way. Obviously they are going to naively blame the proto squad. We need to keep vets with vets and nubs with nubs. I mean honestly us vets don't have fun doing the stomping either. If you truly enjoy stomping newbies, you have issues.
In summary, yes it's nobodies fault except the scotty the matchmaker. But how well can he do with such a small player base. It's sad because poor matchmaking makes people not want to play and then makes matchmaking even worse. It's called a positive feedback loop.
Wow.....I'm not used to someone on the forums with brains. You even know what feedback mechanisms are.
This is not a lack of diplomacy, if anything this is me informing others who are ignorant of how things are. This entire situation of people complaining about protostomping is 25% matchmaking, 25% blueberries giving up halfway through a match, and 50% ugly ugly QQing. |
Boot Booter
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
180
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 01:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Yeah exactly, I agree. All I ask for is a bit of diplomacy from both sides of this 'argument'.
Start a new char and see how long it takes before you encounter a proto squad. Now try to understand how a newbie feels when he or she are repeatedly being set against people who outclass them in almost every way. Obviously they are going to naively blame the proto squad. We need to keep vets with vets and nubs with nubs. I mean honestly us vets don't have fun doing the stomping either. If you truly enjoy stomping newbies, you have issues.
In summary, yes it's nobodies fault except the scotty the matchmaker. But how well can he do with such a small player base. It's sad because poor matchmaking makes people not want to play and then makes matchmaking even worse. It's called a positive feedback loop. Wow.....I'm not used to someone on the forums with brains. You even know what feedback mechanisms are. This is not a lack of diplomacy, if anything this is me informing others who are ignorant of how things are. This entire situation of people complaining about protostomping is 25% matchmaking, 25% blueberries giving up halfway through a match, and 50% ugly ugly QQing.
That's cause brains were nerfed in uprising 1.0.
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Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
30
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
As long as I have a valid on field tactical option I'm find with others having better equipment.
Redline sniping as a default option or weight lifting in the MCC aren't really valid options.
I just get annoyed when the counter to a tactic is the same thing. Or the only counter has to be equivalent gear. If there is a way of matching quality with quantity or better tactical judgement then I'm happy to learn new tricks from the vets.
Some of the solutions by definition require proto gear. Something a newbie will have to wait for quite awhile to get too of playing a balanced not FOTM specialist. Most guides recommend building core upgrade abilities they don't say you need proto gear to even have a chance.
And I do think it is mainly Scotty's fault when he adds to a winning 6 man team a proto squad. Your mileage on the definition of match making may vary under real world conditions. But seriously in a 6 vs 6 match adding a 6 man proto squad isn't match making its pointless. Almost as bad as going 3 tankers vs 6 in ambush. I was ashamed to be on the tankers side.
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
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Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1572
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Since I usually play solo or with one other person, should I be punished for using proto gear to help "offset" that, and to enjoy what I worked hard for? I don't really think so...
Closed Beta Vet
Reading the forums detracts from overall enjoyment of the game
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:This game operates on Risk vs. Reward.
If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process.
If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on.
If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking.
In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear.
edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore.
I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GǪ
What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others.
I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
8283
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 02:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't see how people do nothing but proto squad. I've run around with a squad full of protos, using my proto gear, and it's just boring. I mean, PC would be a different story since everyone's got it, but how you guys run proto 23/7 will never make sense to me, the game is way too easy as is
Win ISK / Vids / O7
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2115
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:This game operates on Risk vs. Reward.
If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process.
If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on.
If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking.
In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear.
edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore. I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GǪ What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others. I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money.
it has nothing to do with how much money one has. good players will have money because they can use proto without dying. the percentage of their wallet that they risk is irrelevant. I can call out my 2.5 mil isk tank and regardless of whether i have 1 isk or 100 mil isk, its still a 2.5 mil isk investment into the match and affects the war effort as such.
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2116
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:I don't see how people do nothing but proto squad. I've run around with a squad full of protos, using my proto gear, and it's just boring. I mean, PC would be a different story since everyone's got it, but how you guys run proto 23/7 will never make sense to me, the game is way too easy as is
I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont.
I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont.
i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative.
"Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesn't have one."
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1418
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote: "Protostomping" is a symptom of our terrible matchmaking. People who complain about mercs using the things they unlocked and paid for are pathetic.
Proper matchmaking is difficult when you have 5 people playing your game.
Sack up.
It's PROstomping when there's 2 full squads on one team, and the other team has a squad of 2 or 3.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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True Adamance
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
4516
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shokhann Echo wrote:spoken like a true stomper
Admittedly I we were fighting in EVE and you and your 500 guys came all T1ed up and looking for a fight. I know the first thing I would do it T2 up my 300 guys and **** you all up.
You bring T2's we go bigger T2's or T3's, you either sack up or back off.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2116
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 02:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote: "Protostomping" is a symptom of our terrible matchmaking. People who complain about mercs using the things they unlocked and paid for are pathetic.
Proper matchmaking is difficult when you have 5 people playing your game.
Sack up.
It's PROstomping when there's 2 full squads on one team, and the other team has a squad of 2 or 3.
nice sig
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
You can't blame a blueberry for giving up. It's the temporary "I'll just sit in the redline sniping" or "hang out in the MCC" solutions that make finishing a match bearable for most new players. I would much rather them AFK then try for 15 minutes and die 20 times. At least AFKing gives you some SP and doesn't cost them valuable ISK. It also gives them a break from all of the things that pressure them to quit completely.
PS: Before anyone starts with the "well all us vets had to go through it when we first started", think about the differences in the experiences people have had. At this point in the game the passive SP most vets have just from existing seems like a pipe dream to someone just starting out. They would have to play for months just to get up to where existing got most of us, not to mention all of the time spent playing since we started. The ratio of people with proto available to proto not available is surely much higher because of this fact alone. Vets are specced into all of their core upgrades, weapon proficiency, first/second proto suit, etc. Anyone with 10-15m SP must start to get that feeling of "well I've got most everything to lvl 3-5 that I need, might as well finish off the core/proficiencies". These are the players that newbs are going up against in pub matches. It's a mismatch now even when they use BPO suits/weapons because of all of the core skills. Throwing proto gear on top of that just makes it hell for the new players.
I'm not trying to say it's wrong to use what you have, I'm just saying that it seems like many of the people who complain about the QQing of protostomping forget that the experience for new players only gets worse as the months go by.
TL;DR: Today's blueberries have it harder than any vets ever did when they were grinding their way to greatness. You can't rightfully judge them for giving up. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2117
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:You can't blame a blueberry for giving up. It's the temporary "I'll just sit in the redline sniping" or "hang out in the MCC" solutions that make finishing a match bearable for most new players. I would much rather them AFK then try for 15 minutes and die 20 times. At least AFKing gives you some SP and doesn't cost them valuable ISK. It also gives them a break from all of the things that pressure them to quit completely.
PS: Before anyone starts with the "well all us vets had to go through it when we first started", think about the differences in the experiences people have had. At this point in the game the passive SP most vets have just from existing seems like a pipe dream to someone just starting out. They would have to play for months just to get up to where existing got most of us, not to mention all of the time spent playing since we started. The ratio of people with proto available to proto not available is surely much higher because of this fact alone. Vets are specced into all of their core upgrades, weapon proficiency, first/second proto suit, etc. Anyone with 10-15m SP must start to get that feeling of "well I've got most everything to lvl 3-5 that I need, might as well finish off the core/proficiencies". These are the players that newbs are going up against in pub matches. It's a mismatch now even when they use BPO suits/weapons because of all of the core skills. Throwing proto gear on top of that just makes it hell for the new players.
I'm not trying to say it's wrong to use what you have, I'm just saying that it seems like many of the people who complain about the QQing of protostomping forget that the experience for new players only gets worse as the months go by.
TL;DR: Today's blueberries have it harder than any vets ever did when they were grinding their way to greatness. You can't rightfully judge them for giving up.
This is pretty incorrect. First of all, to enlighten you all vets currently have about 7.85 million passive sp. Whether that is a pipe dream or not I will withhold my opinion. It certainly can be a lot for someone in their first week, but not that much.
Secondly, who are you to judge my grind? Do these noobs even understand what I had to go through? I HAVE HAD ALL MY SP COMPLETELY WIPED AT LEAST 3 TIMES IN BETA. They will never know what it means to grind sp.
Thirdly, how does it affect your argument when I have proto, but I am the same as the non-proto carebears because CCP has nerfed vehicles to uselessness for the past half year? I never used the FotM weapons or suits. I used blasters back when they didnt hit, I used mass drivers back when they didnt explode, and I use plasma cannons now. I am tired of people complaining about me being proto and now they want to TK me in FW, where I am actually going to be trying to do good in New Eden.
This is the exact same thing in EVE. If someone complains to a titan that they aren't fighting fair when all they have is a frigate, the titan will just laugh, kill them, then proceed to send friend to stalk and repeatedly kill that person until they quit.
Welcome to New Eden.
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Ralden Caster
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
0
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you have that much of a problem with proto-stompers, spec into forge guns.
Don't complain about proto-stompers. LEARN HOW TO FORGE GUN. Seriously, a direct hit is a 1-shot no matter what.
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:This game operates on Risk vs. Reward.
If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process.
If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on.
If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking.
In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear.
edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore. I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GǪ What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others. I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money. it has nothing to do with how much money one has. good players will have money because they can use proto without dying. the percentage of their wallet that they risk is irrelevant. I can call out my 2.5 mil isk tank and regardless of whether i have 1 isk or 100 mil isk, its still a 2.5 mil isk investment into the match and affects the war effort as such.
I understand it's the same amount of ISK, but you're missing my point. I'm saying there's a difference in risk that the player actually feels. This is what I don't believe will ever be considered in the matchmaking calculations.
Take this analogyGǪ The owner of Papa Johns decides to open a new pizzeria in a remote town in Wyoming. It costs him $X to open/maintain this new pizzeria for 5 years and he knows that there is a chance it might go out of business due to the location. Meanwhile, a young entrepreneur in the town could use his $X dollars in life savings to open a pizzeria in the same town.
Now while they both would "risk" the same $X investment, they don't feel the same financial strain. The owner of Papa Johns could lose his $X and just try again 20 more times in random places without ever feeling like he's lost as much as the entrepreneur from the town if he lost his investment.
Maybe even a better analogy would be going "all in" in a game of poker. A player with $1,000 going all in against a player with $10,000 would be taking the largest risk you could take in the game. It could be argued that the person with the larger stack would be stupid not to call regardless of his cards since he can take a $1,000 hit easy.
Back to Dust, someone with 100m ISK could shell out a few tanks no problem while it could wipe out a new player's total ISK in one game. Clearly one person is feeling more "risk" than the other and ignoring that would be ignorant.
PS: I know that everyone has free suits in dust so they can never truly go "all in" but in a proto stomping match that we're describing I'd say it's pretty close as far as the game "ending" when you resort to using free suits against protos. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2119
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 03:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:I understand it's the same amount of ISK, but you're missing my point. I'm saying there's a difference in risk that the player actually feels. This is what I don't believe will ever be considered in the matchmaking calculations.
Take this analogyGǪ The owner of Papa Johns decides to open a new pizzeria in a remote town in Wyoming. It costs him $X to open/maintain this new pizzeria for 5 years and he knows that there is a chance it might go out of business due to the location. Meanwhile, a young entrepreneur in the town could use his $X dollars in life savings to open a pizzeria in the same town.
Now while they both would "risk" the same $X investment, they don't feel the same financial strain. The owner of Papa Johns could lose his $X and just try again 20 more times in random places without ever feeling like he's lost as much as the entrepreneur from the town if he lost his investment.
Maybe even a better analogy would be going "all in" in a game of poker. A player with $1,000 going all in against a player with $10,000 would be taking the largest risk you could take in the game. It could be argued that the person with the larger stack would be stupid not to call regardless of his cards since he can take a $1,000 hit easy.
Back to Dust, someone with 100m ISK could shell out a few tanks no problem while it could wipe out a new player's total ISK in one game. Clearly one person is feeling more "risk" than the other and ignoring that would be ignorant.
PS: I know that everyone has free suits in dust so they can never truly go "all in" but in a proto stomping match that we're describing I'd say it's pretty close as far as the game "ending" when you resort to using free suits against protos.
theres a saying in EVE....dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
no one cares how badly you want a titan, you have to work for it and earn it and until you do, you have to fight others who have them. its how New Eden works. This is the game you play.
If you dont have enough money, earn some. If you cant kill a proto suit with a non proto gun, get friends. Teamwork is OP. If you cant do that, im sorry, your all out of options.
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:I don't see how people do nothing but proto squad. I've run around with a squad full of protos, using my proto gear, and it's just boring. I mean, PC would be a different story since everyone's got it, but how you guys run proto 23/7 will never make sense to me, the game is way too easy as is I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont. I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont. i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative. "Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesn't have one."
Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius?
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2119
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:
I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont.
I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont.
i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative.
"Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one."
Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius?
now this time read what i typed
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:I understand it's the same amount of ISK, but you're missing my point. I'm saying there's a difference in risk that the player actually feels. This is what I don't believe will ever be considered in the matchmaking calculations.
Take this analogyGǪ The owner of Papa Johns decides to open a new pizzeria in a remote town in Wyoming. It costs him $X to open/maintain this new pizzeria for 5 years and he knows that there is a chance it might go out of business due to the location. Meanwhile, a young entrepreneur in the town could use his $X dollars in life savings to open a pizzeria in the same town.
Now while they both would "risk" the same $X investment, they don't feel the same financial strain. The owner of Papa Johns could lose his $X and just try again 20 more times in random places without ever feeling like he's lost as much as the entrepreneur from the town if he lost his investment.
Maybe even a better analogy would be going "all in" in a game of poker. A player with $1,000 going all in against a player with $10,000 would be taking the largest risk you could take in the game. It could be argued that the person with the larger stack would be stupid not to call regardless of his cards since he can take a $1,000 hit easy.
Back to Dust, someone with 100m ISK could shell out a few tanks no problem while it could wipe out a new player's total ISK in one game. Clearly one person is feeling more "risk" than the other and ignoring that would be ignorant.
PS: I know that everyone has free suits in dust so they can never truly go "all in" but in a proto stomping match that we're describing I'd say it's pretty close as far as the game "ending" when you resort to using free suits against protos. theres a saying in EVE....dont fly what you cant afford to lose. no one cares how badly you want a titan, you have to work for it and earn it and until you do, you have to fight others who have them. its how New Eden works. This is the game you play. If you dont have enough money, earn some. If you cant kill a proto suit with a non proto gun, get friends. Teamwork is OP. If you cant do that, im sorry, your all out of options.
Go back to my first post. I'm not saying it's wrong and that people can't slap people around with wads of ISK because they can. I'm saying that oversimplifying the situation as "risk vs. reward" is only valid if everyone has the same amount of money. This is not the case so you need to mention that a 1m ISK loss is a much larger fraction and thus a much larger risk to someone with 10m ISK rather than 100m ISK.
Good for you if you can make money running proto, you must be very proud of yourself. I don't care though, as it doesn't mean anything with regard to what I'm saying. All that I'm saying is that you can't deny the whole "percentage risk" concept and thus using the idea that "we all take risks in this game so it's all fair and balanced on that level" is wrong. |
Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
30
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
In Eve there are multiple options to raise your isk. You can go care bear, PvE, PvP.
Here you have to go MLT vs Proto even in high sec. No worries i will outflank "Scanned/Not Scanned" oh great the only way to stop a proto scanner is proto dampener and/or level 5 scout skill ... Is that an option for a starting player? Nope.
So the protos are in squads, no worries or tanks or redline sniping spawn points. But each of these has a MLT semi counter. Scanners are binary and require a very high investment out of a small SP pool to counter.
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
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Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone Caldari State
1703
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote: "Protostomping" is a symptom of our terrible matchmaking. People who complain about mercs using the things they unlocked and paid for are pathetic.
Proper matchmaking is difficult when you have 5 people playing your game.
Sack up.
People who don't want to fight a fair fight are pathetic.
Having more then 5 people play your game is difficult when any new player gets torn to paste the moment they leave the academy.
Refunding a few AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
124
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:
I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont.
I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont.
i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative.
"Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one."
Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius? now this time read what i typed
I'm pointing out the mismatch between a Ferrari and a Prius and then continuing to point out the humor in someone with a Ferrari being upset that they couldn't race it against a Prius. If I need to spell it out further, here it goesGǪ
There is no contest between a Ferrari and a Prius in a race. It would not be a testament of skill to win a race driving a Ferrari if your opponent was a Prius. To imply that not being able to carry out a demonstration of this complete mismatch is something to fret about is funny to me when I think about the obvious analogy to Dust.
No one is saying you can't use the Ferrari, at least not me. I've said this many times. I don't personally think that mowing down free/advanced suits using proto is very fun but if you're into that then good for you. You must enjoy the game a lot then.
I don't care that you run proto. I don't. Check what I've written. So the only thing left in your post was the goofy Ferrari quote which I responded to. What didn't I read that you hoped I would? |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2121
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 03:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:
I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont.
I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont.
i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative.
"Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one."
Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius? now this time read what i typed I'm pointing out the mismatch between a Ferrari and a Prius and then continuing to point out the humor in someone with a Ferrari being upset that they couldn't race it against a Prius. If I need to spell it out further, here it goesGǪ There is no contest between a Ferrari and a Prius in a race. It would not be a testament of skill to win a race driving a Ferrari if your opponent was a Prius. To imply that not being able to carry out a demonstration of this complete mismatch is something to fret about is funny to me when I think about the obvious analogy to Dust. No one is saying you can't use the Ferrari, at least not me. I've said this many times. I don't personally think that mowing down free/advanced suits using proto is very fun but if you're into that then good for you. You must enjoy the game a lot then. I don't care that you run proto. I don't. Check what I've written. So the only thing left in your post was the goofy Ferrari quote which I responded to. What didn't I read that you hoped I would?
again, you should try reading.
i said i would be unable to use the ferrari because someone on the other team didnt have one, forcing me to use a prius instead.
YAY 4th grade reading skills!!!.....or not....
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
126
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:
I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont.
I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont.
i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative.
"Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one."
Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius? now this time read what i typed I'm pointing out the mismatch between a Ferrari and a Prius and then continuing to point out the humor in someone with a Ferrari being upset that they couldn't race it against a Prius. If I need to spell it out further, here it goesGǪ There is no contest between a Ferrari and a Prius in a race. It would not be a testament of skill to win a race driving a Ferrari if your opponent was a Prius. To imply that not being able to carry out a demonstration of this complete mismatch is something to fret about is funny to me when I think about the obvious analogy to Dust. No one is saying you can't use the Ferrari, at least not me. I've said this many times. I don't personally think that mowing down free/advanced suits using proto is very fun but if you're into that then good for you. You must enjoy the game a lot then. I don't care that you run proto. I don't. Check what I've written. So the only thing left in your post was the goofy Ferrari quote which I responded to. What didn't I read that you hoped I would? again, you should try reading. i said i would be unable to use the ferrari because someone on the other team didnt have one, forcing me to use a prius instead. YAY 4th grade reading skills!!!.....or not....
Haha I assure you I can read. What I can't seem to do is understand how this relates to Dust then. Are you saying that someone has prevented you form using proto by not having proto themselves? Because that doesn't happen. At all. Most people have Ferrari's in Dust, and again, I've never hinted even that you couldn't use them or that I would condone this restriction.
To reiterate my thesis once again (now in a DUST/stupidraceanalogy hybrid)GǪ Most people have Ferarri's at this point and the only thing special about driving Ferrari's is the ability to drive them all day, every day, in every race, against any vehicle. For someone who can do this without blinking an eye, it might be hard to understand the risk someone who can't takes when trying to play on their playing field. Pulling out a Prius might be the only option they have after losing a few Ferrari's. #poormercproblems.
I appreciate you attacking my reading capabilities and challenge you to either agree or disagree with basically the only point I've been arguing this whole time: Risk is not calibrated uniformly from player to player due to varying amounts of ISK the players possess.
PS: I double dare you. Stop dodging with the reading ****, it's boring. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2122
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:
Haha I assure you I can read. What I can't seem to do is understand how this relates to Dust then.
well at this point i wont even bother reading what you typed. its called an analogy for a previous point i really dont remember anymore. peace
"He shouldve realized at that point I was lying as I'd already had my morning poo and I don't read newspapers."
CB Vet
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
126
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Posted - 2013.12.04 04:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
Haha I assure you I can read. What I can't seem to do is understand how this relates to Dust then.
well at this point i wont even bother reading what you typed. its called an analogy for a previous point i really dont remember anymore. peace
Sweet job making a post and then bailing when people challenge your opinion. Later bro. |
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