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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3960
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Posted - 2013.11.29 03:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gallente vs Caldari
Contract Income: 292,682
SP: 5,607
Kill: 30 (best streak: 7)
Assists: 4
Deaths: 13 (worst streak 2)
Headshots: 3
Longest Kill: 47
Total Damage Dealt: 24,054
Total Damage Received: 12,443
Favorite Dropsuit: Assault G/1-Series
Favorite Weapon: GEK-38
Spot on Killboard: 1st (1,715 WP)
Now.... As you can see, this battle was visceral and very close quarters. 85% of this match took place on one objective as the enemy farmed it for kills and when I say that you could look around the corner and see about a dozen or so enemies, I'm not lying. This match sucked but by all rights I did pretty damn good considering that kind of adversity. Very fast paced and action packed, albeit frustrating.
The glaring issue?
Estimate ISK Cost from suits lost: 627,510
That means that the payment for my contract covered about 46.64% of the ISK I lost fighting as hard as I possibly could with the suit I was using. I never changed fits and the suit itself was an advanced model with the only complex piece of gear being the armor repairer, everything else was advanced/enhanced tier gear.
What this basically means is that, despite being the best fighter (no Logi-work increasing my WP count) I didn't even cover my losses. I was one of TWO (that's right, TWO) players on my team that had a positive KDR and the other one was my squad leader; effectively meaning that despite the fact that while I, a seasoned PC fighter, couldn't even cover my own losses there were players (some from NPC corps) who were significantly worse off.
Time-to-kill is a major part of this, yes. While I'm not too beat up about Faction Warfare 2.0 not paying ISK in the future, I can't help but wonder how on earth a player is supposed to keep playing this game with anything more than Militia/Standard gear if they're not part of PC. I understand that there are a lot of contributing factors playing into this but I'm fairly certain the rest of the community can agree that something is seriously wrong here.
This isn't Prototype gear loaded to the brim with complex modules - this is ADVANCED/ENHANCED gear. If the payouts only cover six fits, how the bloody hell is a player supposed to make any ISK without having PC funding? I get that we want to encourage people to go into PC because it allows for better play but this is just ridiculous.
TL;DR - Payouts suck.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3960
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Posted - 2013.11.29 04:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:I'm not quite seing the glaring issue here. You chose to run a ~50k fit 13 times in a row and left at a loss. Doing relatively well in terms of k/d was pretty much bought with running the not quite inexpensive suit.
The glaring issue i see is that some corps are completely independant of the pub/FW payouts through their PC income. This puts unecessary pressure on all other players, since they have to actually manage their resources.
Let us also keep in mind that, once the secondary market takes over the general economy and becomes the new primary market so to speak, raising payouts will just lead to higher prizes, thus no improvement is achieved in this types of cases at all.
The glaring issue is that there is a major disparity between the casual player who uses Pubs/FW payouts as their primary income and the players (like myself) who receive a paycheck from PC. It's an issue, I feel, because when the matches start getting one-sided, as they often do, it gets to a point where the player has to make a decision between seeing it through or leaving all together. That's not good, in my opinion.
There aren't many close matches, we all understand that much. It usually feels one sided with stacked teams for whatever reason, be it in the Pub-Matches where the match maker throws together a hodge-podge of randomly queued individuals or Faction Warfare which is more free form. My problem is that the disparity between the two player groups is a bit large; I can afford to do this because I have PC funding, whereas another player may not.
That being said, what incentive is there to use the high-end gear for the matches that matter - like in Faction Warfare? If the payouts are the same (or nill, as CCP has stated they want to remove the payout all together) than the casual player is restricted to high-sec pub matches where these occasional high-investment battles can empty the wallet very very quickly.
Let me make it abundantly clear, this isn't Prototype/Complex gear. This is Advanced/Enhanced. If the losses incurred were so high that I couldn't even afford to replace half of them, how is a player without some other means of gaining ISK expected to continue using it in Faction Warfare? Or in a Pub match in which the match-maker for some reason decided to pit them against a team of Prototype-wearing individuals?
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3960
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Posted - 2013.11.29 04:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:The glaring issue is that there is a major disparity between the casual player who uses Pubs/FW payouts as their primary income and the players (like myself) who receive a paycheck from PC. It's an issue, I feel, because when the matches start getting one-sided, as they often do, it gets to a point where the player has to make a decision between seeing it through or leaving all together. That's not good, in my opinion.
There aren't many close matches, we all understand that much. It usually feels one sided with stacked teams for whatever reason, be it in the Pub-Matches where the match maker throws together a hodge-podge of randomly queued individuals or Faction Warfare which is more free form. My problem is that the disparity between the two player groups is a bit large; I can afford to do this because I have PC funding, whereas another player may not.
That being said, what incentive is there to use the high-end gear for the matches that matter - like in Faction Warfare? If the payouts are the same (or nill, as CCP has stated they want to remove the payout all together) than the casual player is restricted to high-sec pub matches where these occasional high-investment battles can empty the wallet very very quickly.
Let me make it abundantly clear, this isn't Prototype/Complex gear. This is Advanced/Enhanced. If the losses incurred were so high that I couldn't even afford to replace half of them, how is a player without some other means of gaining ISK expected to continue using it in Faction Warfare? Or in a Pub match in which the match-maker for some reason decided to pit them against a team of Prototype-wearing individuals?
The disparity is real and an issue. That we agree on ( though my starting sentence kinda suggested otherwise). I just wanted to emphasise that I see the issue coming from the top end of the chain (PC), not the bottom end (everything else). Matches should always have the risk of you losing ISK overall if you overcommit to a match that, by the looks of it, was very difficult and i don't think that this should be limited to proto gear. I think that, for the average/poor player (like myself), the system works as designed. It's the fact that doing well in PC breaks this mechanic as those corps/players are quite simply not relying on pub payouts anymore. Again, I think the solution is not to raise payouts in the low end, as this only leads to inflation so it isn't going to help the non-PC player much, but to figure out something that makes PC worthwhile that is not just straight up ISK. The FW changes, if done right, could be a a good example of that. I just don't know yet what that could be. Edit Addendum: Maybe this will all become much better as soon as the secondary market kicks in. The .5b ISK player simply has nothing to spend all this cash on so that wasting it does not result in any loss. Once you guys have to buy balac's for 5m each to have a fair chance in PC, because....well.... the enemy does so, wasting ISK on pubs could suddenly become a liability. This means less proto in pubs -> means less pressure to counter with PRO/ADV -> lower cost to compete in this kind of matches.
I'm about to make another thread to illustrate this point more clearly but for a new player that price gets significantly higher (frames costing more than specialization suits).
Once Faction Warfare and PC are in a better place, and a proper (working) P2P market is in order, I'm all for restricting gear in pub-matches to emphasize on wanting to branch out from them.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3963
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Posted - 2013.11.29 05:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I'm about to make another thread to illustrate this point more clearly but for a new player that price gets significantly higher (frames costing more than specialization suits).
Once Faction Warfare and PC are in a better place, and a proper (working) P2P market is in order, I'm all for restricting gear in pub-matches to emphasize on wanting to branch out from them. The expensive basic frames are a cheap (and bad) way to emphasise specialization. I'm all with you on this. They should be hybrids: Jack of all trades - master of none. I would be really dissapointed if we had to limit gear on certain modes. The whole point this tiered design (that CCP is just finishing to kill in EVE, incidentallly) is to allow players a concious choice between low risk/low performance and high risk/high performance. I view deliberate "protostomping" to force the opponent in a situation where they can either raise the odds and bring out their own shiny or switch to zerg and guerilla tactics as a valid mechanic in principle. The only thing that's broken about it right now is that "stomping" is no commitment, but a commonplace for too many corps and thus in too many matches. I also don't like the idea of being able to "chose your encounter" in a New Eden Game. People have to learn at some point, that the enemy can always chose to throw money at the problem, and how to deal with it. Restricting pubs will just mean that they'll have to learn it a little later, at which point they might already be too accustomed to the safety of pubs to accept that.
You raise an interesting point but having restrictions isn't so far out of the realm of plausible as Eve Online benefits well from this. I don't mean having Concord show up and CONCORDOKKEN you for engaging other players in high-sec but there are certain high-risk atmospheres that you don't see until you go into low-sec (capitals) or null-sec (interdictors). This does give sort of a tier-based, scaling experience that works out really well and gives newer players a way to rise up the ranks at their leisure.
Much in the same way is the basis for my argument that having restrictions on gear in high-sec pub matches would be largely beneficial as it would allow players both new and old to try out new things in less stressful environment. General speaking, I try not to use Prototype gear in pub-matches unless the enemy rolls it out and when that happens, all bets are off. The only reason I am able to do this, however, is because I have PC funding.
By removal of that, there would still be a conscious choice as the costs (as you say) are high for high risk games like the one this thread was based on. Thirteen deaths is a lot but this would be a lot more expensive for a new player using a frame and had less SP invested into the key areas like myself (by this I mean Armor/Shield Upgrades and the like) as they're more at a disadvantage.
Hope this better explains my view of things.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3964
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Posted - 2013.11.29 05:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lololololol just did a pub-match for 89,504 ISK.
So much for that argument.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3967
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Posted - 2013.11.29 19:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:Edit:
Previously, I thought this was a complaint about proto suit costs. Now ...
Um. Due respect for the 30 kills, but ... die less.
I run full advanced kit, as a scout, and normally turn a nice little profit. The exception is when my score card looks like the OP: no profit, nor do I deserve one if I'm going to throw quality kit down a hole.
If you're dying a lot, have a basic suit you can switch to that still gets the same job done most of the time.
That would make sense if this were a pub-match but this was Faction Warfare where the stakes are (theoretically) higher. The outcome of the battle actually matters and one would expect that the Factions would pay handsomely for throwing ones' high-end gear at the problem. For the record, the other team was q-synced and almost all of them fielded Prototype gear.
Fact of the matter is this: Match maker is broken as the dickens so you can't honestly expect that people are going to play pub-matches and turn a profit when the pub-match-maker thinks it's a good idea to team up Ancient Exiles and ANONYMOUS on one team and a group of starter kit using NPC randoms on the other team. Faction Warfare at least has the limitations that I don't have to rely on a **** match-maker and the battles actually matter, as previously stated.
So, one might expect that the higher risk play-style would reward better but it doesn't. In fact, CCP removing ISK rewards from Faction Warfare in FW 2.0 is only furthering the negative impact that the low rewards system has on the game to accomodate for features that aren't in yet (P2P Market). What will inevitably wind up happening is that FW 2.0 is more than likely going to be a playstyle reserved only for the people who -can- afford it (AFKers and PC players) whereas the remainder are left to the broken pub matches.
The "Die Less" argument is subjective and if you think that I did poorly, you should see some of the other guys. It's not always something that can be controlled unless you just Start > Leave Battle or camp the redline with a sniper rifle (incidentally, something I'd imagine all of you hate). Just as well, lowering oneself to using standard, militia or BPO gear is self-defeating because, while it is low risk, it's also low performance. The reason this is a problem is because Proto-stomping teams are already earning a reward for doing well: Precision Strikes. Forcing you to downgrade is just the icing on the cake if they're doing significantly better BECAUSE of that gear.
So which is it? Are we catering to veteran players who already have numerous advantages or are we going to at least make the game challenging (as opposed to punishing) for the rest of the game? I could go either way (I am, after all, getting a paycheck from PC clone sales) but I don't think we're going to do new player retention any favors if we let this slide.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3975
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Posted - 2013.11.30 09:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:The whole point of the ISK rewards is to make you think twice about what you run just like you say. That fully applies to me and I follow the often-quoted EvE maxim that you shouldn't fly what you can't afford to lose. PC corp members do not have to follow that rule because they effectively have no limit to what they can spend, which kills the risk/reward aspect for the majority (who don't do PC) who can't get ahead because they always have to run gear they can't afford.
Cue vicious cycle where they consequently can't make a push into PC because they can't build up a big enough war chest to fund it. They're not following the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule? To the contrary. They're following it to the letter-- they can just afford to lose more, at least for a little while. It's like one of those pirate corps that can field Machariels. ('Course, even when they can afford it, losing those things still hurts.) I get what you and Aeon are saying; I just don't agree. Perhaps it's because as a career scout I'm accustomed to being outclassed by any random red dot in a straight fight, but I just don't see inferior equipment as any sort of insurmountable obstacle. The differences are incremental, though they do add up. Getting into PC from outside is going to require a lot of fighting smart. Really, I think what PC really needs is massive expansion: open up enough of it that even the largest group can't defend more than a small percentage of it. It's an experimental, and very limited, arena at the moment. I agree that the rewards can get outsized, but that seems more like reason to democratize it and maybe adjust those rewards than to start tinkering with other aspects of the game. Being able to keep myself in advanced gear, plus a modest profit, through FW seems ... about right, really. But, as noted, we'll see how the LP stores work out.
Makes no difference to me. I make anywhere from 5-8 million ISK a day in clone sales and PC victories. Last week I hit my active cap on PC battles alone and as a result my wallet shot up dramatically from the victories. I've never actually encountered a situation where I'd dip beneath 50,000,000 ISK and I was literally trying to by throwing dropships and tanks (repeatedly) into matches to screw around.
Disagree if you want to but as previously stated, I'm not the one who has to suffer the consequences of the decision - I'm well off and I'm going to be even more well off when 1.7 rolls out because I'll be getting 120,000,000 ISK just from the Falchions I've got saved up from the Mordu's event. Proto gear is expensive but it's going to take me a loooooong time to burn through that many...
Fix the Frames, Fix the game
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