DUST Search - I'm going to try and summarise the issue with the protostomping in pubgames

Karl Marx II wrote:

We can all agree that matchmaking is a MASSIVE PROBLEM that needs to be addressed, I compare it to a cut that keeps bleeding potential new players away from the game .. it may not kill you in 1 go but if left unchecked if you keep bleeding you will eventually die !

Protostomping in pubgames may not be the root cause of the problem but it is certainly adding to the problem .. it is the equivalent of getting a knife and making the initial cut bigger ... it speeds up the process and makes things worse !

I see loads of counter arguments trying to justify it however the issue I've been trying to explain for the past 6 months isn;t the use of proto completely but it's use in public games ... what is the harm in using proto in FW and using STD/ADV in pub games ?

Win at all costs mentality is fine when there's something to play for but .. pub games ? What exactly is the reason to fight in them ? Increase your character stats ? Farm ISK ? You can do all that in FW with more competition but the simple fact is that people who protostomp in pubgames purposefully go their because they know most of the good players do FW and realise that they will likely get an easy match v new/intermediate players if they go down the pub game route.

I have full access to proto and officer gear but refrain from using it in pubgames and only use it in FW and PC .. I do really well in my ADV suit even against the protosquads .. that is because I've been playing for 11 months and run in an experienced squad ... what chance do players just out of the academy stand though ? Every response I get is HTFU or some other E-PEEN stroking nonsense but I'm not arguing against it for my benefit I'm arguing against it because it is needless and is killing the game for the newish players ... far too many people in this community are short sighted and self obsessed and it will be the death of us all

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Karl Marx II Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 183	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:40:00 - [1] - Quote We can all agree that matchmaking is a MASSIVE PROBLEM that needs to be addressed, I compare it to a cut that keeps bleeding potential new players away from the game .. it may not kill you in 1 go but if left unchecked if you keep bleeding you will eventually die ! Protostomping in pubgames may not be the root cause of the problem but it is certainly adding to the problem .. it is the equivalent of getting a knife and making the initial cut bigger ... it speeds up the process and makes things worse ! I see loads of counter arguments trying to justify it however the issue I've been trying to explain for the past 6 months isn;t the use of proto completely but it's use in public games ... what is the harm in using proto in FW and using STD/ADV in pub games ? Win at all costs mentality is fine when there's something to play for but .. pub games ? What exactly is the reason to fight in them ? Increase your character stats ? Farm ISK ? You can do all that in FW with more competition but the simple fact is that people who protostomp in pubgames purposefully go their because they know most of the good players do FW and realise that they will likely get an easy match v new/intermediate players if they go down the pub game route. I have full access to proto and officer gear but refrain from using it in pubgames and only use it in FW and PC .. I do really well in my ADV suit even against the protosquads .. that is because I've been playing for 11 months and run in an experienced squad ... what chance do players just out of the academy stand though ? Every response I get is HTFU or some other E-PEEN stroking nonsense but I'm not arguing against it for my benefit I'm arguing against it because it is needless and is killing the game for the newish players ... far too many people in this community are short sighted and self obsessed and it will be the death of us all My Theme
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5530	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:42:00 - [2] - Quote Tiericide. That is all. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2350	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:50:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. But what crutch will the try hards lean on to beat new players and protect their egos then Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Karl Marx II Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 184	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:50:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. I just wanted to summarise the argument in this thread because it seems alot of people who argue that it is justified really don't seem to understand how much of a problem it is for the game as a whole ... My Theme
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 538	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:51:00 - [5] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. But what crutch will the try hards lean on to beat new players and protect their egos then The Rifles of course... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
Cass Caul 372	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:52:00 - [6] - Quote I want 100 Quafe gk.0 suits. I am running proto until the 31st. then I'll go back to my old ways: BPO in pubs & FW for Min/Cal and proto in PC & FW for Gal/Amarr +Éß¦ëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦ A girl, on the internet?! I roll to disbelieve.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1982	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:52:00 - [7] - Quote All good points and we can't count on the players to change so it'll have to be forced through tiered match making. We need to farm the little noobs in a nice protected place so that they grow up to be worth adversaries and then point our fancy guns at them. Hmm... I feel a thought bubbling up. Off to the Feedback forums! // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Crash Tester // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
daishi mk03 BLACK-GUARD Die Fremdenlegion 414	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:53:00 - [8] - Quote There is not a single reason to use proto in pubs. Yet, there is no reason to don't use proto. I hate people running proto in pubs. > I play FW only with a squad.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 184	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:53:00 - [9] - Quote It's pretty clear to me that CCP wants us to play$pay for prototype gear as often as we can. The tiers are only slightly differentiated by a hp and dps advantages, but the 5 or 10% difference is just enough to make it worth the expense. If you can't afford to run protogear, you are encouraged to buy AUR suits and Boosters if you lack the prerequisite skills. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
R F Gyro Clones 4u 691	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:55:00 - [10] - Quote Its a good job unbalanced matches don't happen in the real world isn't it? RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 184	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:56:00 - [11] - Quote I should add that I agree that any character should have access to a low SP training level for their first couple of months. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Karl Marx II Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 184	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:01:00 - [12] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Its a good job unbalanced matches don't happen in the real world isn't it? If it was Man City v a load of children who'd just started playing football then you may have a point .. but it isn;t it is 2 professional football teams who are experienced at the game playing on a level playing field and the only differential is the players actual ability to play the game .. Man City's players don't have rockets on their boots to help them run faster or shoot harder, they don;t have a brick wall in front of their net stopping their opponents from scoring. I'm not talking about balance in terms of the result (perfect balance in that instance would always equate to a draw) I'm talking about balance in terms of the level of SP and gear being used in public games ... sure their will still be pubstomps but at least newish players have more of a chance v others in STD and ADV than against those guys in Full Proto My Theme
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2350	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:03:00 - [13] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. But what crutch will the try hards lean on to beat new players and protect their egos then The Rifles of course... Everyone has a rifle making the playing field even, point null Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1982	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:10:00 - [14] - Quote Posted this in feedback. Please provide feedback on my feedback. Divide public matches between high and low and provide reduced or no reward once you hit a certain level and still troll the high sec battles. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1539917#post1539917 // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Crash Tester // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 75	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:11:00 - [15] - Quote Karl Marx II wrote: We can all agree that matchmaking is a MASSIVE PROBLEM that needs to be addressed, I compare it to a cut that keeps bleeding potential new players away from the game .. it may not kill you in 1 go but if left unchecked if you keep bleeding you will eventually die ! Protostomping in pubgames may not be the root cause of the problem but it is certainly adding to the problem .. it is the equivalent of getting a knife and making the initial cut bigger ... it speeds up the process and makes things worse ! I see loads of counter arguments trying to justify it however the issue I've been trying to explain for the past 6 months isn;t the use of proto completely but it's use in public games ... what is the harm in using proto in FW and using STD/ADV in pub games ? Win at all costs mentality is fine when there's something to play for but .. pub games ? What exactly is the reason to fight in them ? Increase your character stats ? Farm ISK ? You can do all that in FW with more competition but the simple fact is that people who protostomp in pubgames purposefully go their because they know most of the good players do FW and realise that they will likely get an easy match v new/intermediate players if they go down the pub game route. I have full access to proto and officer gear but refrain from using it in pubgames and only use it in FW and PC .. I do really well in my ADV suit even against the protosquads .. that is because I've been playing for 11 months and run in an experienced squad ... what chance do players just out of the academy stand though ? Every response I get is HTFU or some other E-PEEN stroking nonsense but I'm not arguing against it for my benefit I'm arguing against it because it is needless and is killing the game for the newish players ... far too many people in this community are short sighted and self obsessed and it will be the death of us all Ok, first off if you tier-cide the matches, then you will ultimately only perpetuate the behavior you just stated above. Better players will switch down to the lower tiers for the "easier kills" and "moar fun" stomping on the less skilled players. ALL players will end up using the lowest tier as a way to "farm ISK" off newbs. The ultimate problem here are the players. So any solution has to take that kinda mentality into account. Second, you got it wrong. Pub matches are a "misnomer". When you do an Ambush, Domination, or Skirmish, you are being hired by an NPC corporation in EVE to do their bidding. So this is technically PvE content of a sort. Similarly, in FW when you fight you are fighting for an NPC faction. Again, technically PvE content. Only PC is fully PVP content and even then you still earn random ISK and salvage from out of nowhere. I do however agree that there needs to be some kinda more rigorous and extended training academy for the newbs to the game. Something where you have to "earn" your way out of the academy and prove that you are worthy and ready to join the ranks of the fully fledged hard-asses of DUST. I know that this may seem counter to grabbing and retaining new players to a game, but in this instance I think it would pay dividends in the long run as players know from the get go that it is a "real" game of "real" difficulty. And the challenge alone will suck them in.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2400	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:12:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. And by extension remove one of the core features in dust: becoming more powerfull as an individual mercenary. Dust 514 is all about making your name as an individual merc progressing and becoming more powerfull, making a name for yourself, joining others to gain fame and fortune. At least that's the idea, now it's turning into just a lobby shooter with some extra features because everyone wants everything to be 'fair' and can't handle their beatings or a shooter that takes strategy and teamwork to do well in rather then who shoots first. And yes I'm one of those closed beta tryhards, suck it. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja. Forum Warrior level 2 A grunt of STB
Midas Fool T.R.I.A.D 224	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:30:00 - [17] - Quote I figured the general concensus was only using high-tier fits/weaposn/equipment in FW or PC. That's what I do, in FW at least, since I never got into PC. Is this what we're agreeing on now? I hope so. I also hope they put a warning next to FW tab so that MLT fits don't show up straight out of academy. No really. Protostompers invited. Lets face off on even terms in FW. Stop bothering people in regular pubs and find a challenge. For best results press R1 repeatedly. Consult your doctor if your erection persists for more than four hours.
Panoscape BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 165	Posted - 2013.11.27 20:42:00 - [18] - Quote CCP did a good job with the academy, but it needs to go farther. It can all be fixed by creating an SP filtering rule for public contracts. Lets say there's three filters; 5M SP and below, 5.1M SP to 10M SP and then 10.1M SP and above. Filtering the game into three tiers of SP would greatly relieve the protostomping at low levels. This was suggested back in Beta... but sometimes CCP knows better.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1286	Posted - 2013.11.27 21:33:00 - [19] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide. That is all. And by extension remove one of the core features in dust: becoming more powerfull as an individual mercenary. Dust 514 is all about making your name as an individual merc progressing and becoming more powerfull, making a name for yourself, joining others to gain fame and fortune. At least that's the idea, now it's turning into just a lobby shooter with some extra features because everyone wants everything to be 'fair' and can't handle their beatings or a shooter that takes strategy and teamwork to do well in rather then who shoots first. And yes I'm one of those closed beta tryhards, suck it. +1 Sinboto. We can solve the pubstomping problem without gutting core features from the game. Homogenization is not the answer. Matchmaking is the answer. If that can't be made to work(for now), there are many other good suggestions, e.g. Reav's posted above. I support SP rollover.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 756	Posted - 2013.11.27 21:40:00 - [20] - Quote I really believe protostompers are members of NAMBLA. Don't listen to me though. I've been drinking. "It's made with bits of real Gallente. So you know it's good." -GÇö Brian Fantana paraphrased

Seeth Mensch highland marines 61	Posted - 2013.11.27 21:53:00 - [21] - Quote I like the SP tier idea posted above. I've suggested similar. I read somewhere else today an idea that limits the metalevel of your items, which I kinda like even better in some ways. I realize we (in theory) have a very small player base (i dunno, I feel like I see 40k players on all the time), but surely it can cope with some division amongst what people want to risk. Simple High-med-low risk pools, corresponding to the metalevels of the items involved. Heck, could make for entire new gamestyles! Imagine an allotment of levels. You get, say, 30 levels to make your fitting. It could be the "wild card" game, where who knows what you'll run into! Or maybe up to 2 levels on everything but one item, which can be up to level 4. it could be called.....Four Play Hi! Gosh, I've missed you...with every bullet, plasma shot, rail gun, and missile.
DJINN Marauder Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 3163	Posted - 2013.11.27 22:00:00 - [22] - Quote I proto stomp to make the games go faster. Why don't I do it on fw? Because its skirmish. I only play ambush. So that's also part of the reason. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 3
castba Penguin's March 219	Posted - 2013.11.27 23:01:00 - [23] - Quote Panoscape wrote: CCP did a good job with the academy, but it needs to go farther. It can all be fixed by creating an SP filtering rule for public contracts. Lets say there's three filters; 5M SP and below, 5.1M SP to 10M SP and then 10.1M SP and above. Filtering the game into three tiers of SP would greatly relieve the protostomping at low levels. This was suggested back in Beta... but sometimes CCP knows better. I guess the tricky part with this would be squads. Example: Recruit1 has 600,000sp Recruit2 has 1,000,000sp Squad leader vet has 25,000,000sp Recruit3 has 550,000sp Veteran has 15,000,000sp Total squad do is 42,150,000sp I presume thus is divided by 5 so they would all enter a battle in the 5-10m sp category? How would that pan out for the recruits? Would the vets still run their proto while teaching or would they try to pad their precious kdr. Regardless of how matchmaking is implemented, it seems to me that the onus is more on the players than anything else. Isn't this what CCP are after? I Support SP Rollover
ratamaq doc Edge Regiment 153	Posted - 2013.11.27 23:06:00 - [24] - Quote I think a good solution would be to better explain the rewards for the meta levels you kill by CCP so we can fine tune it to balance. Currently I think I am rewarded more for not just the number of people I kill, but for what they were equipped with. It would be nice to see these stats at the end game screen so that it's explained to new players easier. Even a load screen quote to the effect of "killing mercenaries in higher tear gear will net you more profit". I also think salvage should be explained and refined in the same way. Something to the effect of for every 3 kills of a player using a PRO weapon, you get 1 of that weapon as salvage. This would have three positive effects on the current problem. 1. Lower geared players would be rewarded in both ISK and equipment when they get 'protostomped' 2. Knowledge that the rewards are better and why will create a new class of proto hunters which will drive away the protobears who aren't worthy of their suites. 3. Long time players who can run proto 24/7 and still turn a profit, the top players of this game, will benefit from the increased challenge of playing matches with a target on their back. I personally have stated on several occasions that I have no respect for 'protobears' and they should leave that **** in PC. I'm starting to reverse this opinion because I've recognized it's somewhat of a copout . I have enough SP that I've protoed 2 suites, 4 weapons, and all my equipment. I should be using it to benefit my team. I don't like pulling it out partially of the crutch stigma, but mostly because I feel safe turning a profit in my cheap gear. If I were truly good at this game, I should be running proto 24/7 and turning a profit. But that doesn't change the need for new player retention.


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