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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
449
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Posted - 2013.11.26 15:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll just keep leaving this all over the place, I guess:
John Demonsbane wrote:My head hurts. OK, many years ago in The Simpsons, the school strikes oil and poll their employees as to how to spend the money. The lunch lady comes in and says: lunch lady Doris wrote: "The staff are complaining about the mice in the kitchen...."
"I want to hire a new staff!"
Logi bro said it himself, the problem is logis not using equipment. So, here's what we get: Logi bro wrote: "The logistics players aren't using their equipment....."
"Let's take away their weapons!"
How does taking away a light weapon fix the problem of people not filling equipment slots? Oh, right, it doesn't!You are solving one problem by causing an entirely new and worse one? Brilliant! CCP hire this man immediately! Here's a novel idea, if we identify a problem, perhaps we could solve that actual problem. It's just crazy enough to work. If you think that logistics suits are problems because people don't use equipment, maybe we should get them to use equipment! Make the suits such that the fitting is not valid unless the equipment slots are full. My god, this isn't freaking rocket surgery.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
449
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Quote:I firmly believe that logi suit players make up a vast majority of Dust 514. So true, because every Assault is using one.... Zing!Also, to the above post, making logi equipment better while keeping their slaying power at or above the Assault's slaying power a fix does not make.
You miss the point entirely. If you adjust the suits so that there is an incentive/bonus to using equipment over other things then you inherently reduce the slaying power. You're delusional if you think that I can run ADV/PRO equipment in every slot (which I do) and also stack 3 damage mods and a Duvolle. It can't be done on my Amarr proto suit, I can tell you that with absolute certainty.
I was quite disappointed to find out that the suit in fact can't run max equipment and be a kill machine like you would surely believe if you read the QQ on the forums. So, lets say you reduce the total CPU/PG by a small amount (I really should do the maths on this one of these days), but then give all the suits an equipment fitting reduction like the gallente suit. This way, someone who actually fills all their equipment slots with hign-end gear can still defend themselves (good luck going against the newly buffed AR or a RR with an SMG, btw) with lets say a GEK - that's usu what I run b/c the CRW-04 ScR uses too much CPU/PG because the equipment uses up less fitting cost. BUT, since you reduced the overall fitting power of the suit, if you don't use equipment, the suit becomes worse than it is now?
Does it make more sense now? If not then I can't help you, you are just doomed to be a nerftard like every other idiot on these forums.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
450
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Quote:I firmly believe that logi suit players make up a vast majority of Dust 514. So true, because every Assault is using one.... Zing!Also, to the above post, making logi equipment better while keeping their slaying power at or above the Assault's slaying power a fix does not make. You miss the point entirely. If you adjust the suits so that there is an incentive/bonus to using equipment over other things then you inherently reduce the slaying power. You're delusional if you think that I can run ADV/PRO equipment in every slot (which I do) and also stack 3 damage mods and a Duvolle. It can't be done on my Amarr proto suit, I can tell you that with absolute certainty. I was quite disappointed to find out that the suit in fact can't run max equipment and be a kill machine like you would surely believe if you read the QQ on the forums. So, lets say you reduce the total CPU/PG by a small amount (I really should do the maths on this one of these days), but then give all the suits an equipment fitting reduction like the gallente suit. This way, someone who actually fills all their equipment slots with hign-end gear can still defend themselves (good luck going against the newly buffed AR or a RR with an SMG, btw) with lets say a GEK - that's usu what I run b/c the CRW-04 ScR uses too much CPU/PG because the equipment uses up less fitting cost. BUT, since you reduced the overall fitting power of the suit, if you don't use equipment, the suit becomes worse than it is now? Does it make more sense now? If not then I can't help you, you are just doomed to be a nerftard like every other idiot on these forums. You might not be able to run max damage mods with that duvolle, but not only are you still running a duvolle, you've got a descent tank AND all the equipment you could hope for. Does it make more sense now? If not then I can't help you, you are just doomed to be a noob who wants to do everything like every other idiot on these forums. (see how flinging useless insults adds nothing to the discussion?)
I hit post instead of preview prematurely. See the updated version. Also, please explain how if I can run a duvolle on a proto suit with no damage mods that it is either:
a) Totally unreasonable since it's a proto suit
b) Makes me better at killing than an assault who can run that duvolle with 2 damage mods?
(EDIT: I also don''t use duvolles. I use mostly ADV level weapons as I stated in the first post)
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
450
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:"I propose we don't drop light weapons from the Logi suit, but instead make it harder for them to fit dmg mods"-Me
"NOOOOOO STFU!"-All Logis
Why? That's a very odd solution to the issue. People would just shield tank more, which is every bit as effective as a damage mod in most cases. Go right ahead and do that, I'd take that over losing a light weapon any day. Dual tanking FTW.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
453
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Posted - 2013.11.26 19:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
You miss the point entirely. If you adjust the suits so that there is an incentive/bonus to using equipment over other things then you inherently reduce the slaying power. You're delusional if you think that I can run ADV/PRO equipment in every slot (which I do) and also stack 3 damage mods and a Duvolle. It can't be done on my Amarr proto suit, I can tell you that with absolute certainty.
Not true. Amarr Logi Ak.0 3x Complex Damage mods Duvolle Submachine Gun Locus grenade 4x basic plate Wyrikomi Triage Hive Allotek Hive Allotek Stable Uplink Proto links and two repping hives, with three complex damage mods. If I had dropsuit engineering 5, I would be able to step up the grenade.
Huh. Got me there, I'll have to try it out. I use armor reps so I never tried stacking a ton of basic plates like that. I guess it makes sense since they scale differently than shield extenders do and higher mods are less efficient. Damnit, I'm doing it wrong, lol.
Nonetheless, equipment bonuses and modest reductions in CPU/PG still work way better than taking light weapons away. A new player with a STD logi suit and STD SMG with no dam mods would be a lamb to the slaughter.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
457
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Posted - 2013.11.26 20:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Evicer wrote:Maximus Stryker wrote:Vell0cet wrote:The easy fix is to nerf CPU/PG significantly so it's impossible to fit a pimped out tank with a pimped out weapon. Then give a huge bonus CPU/PG reduction to certain equipment (like nanohives, needles, reppers, etc.). This would result in them being able to use great gear, but with lower tier weapons, or a great weapon with a weaker tank.
Also, as TTK get's fixed, speed will play more of a factor in the overall survivability of a suit. This will hurt the logi some because it's drawback will be more significant. actually the easy fix is leave everything alone and simply remove light weapon from logi suit so that anyone with a brain will no longer play the suit and others will realize that you are just everyones ***** and the most expensive target on the field.... Im sorry but that was my translation of what you just typed Speak for yourself, I've been running a Sidearm-Only Logi for nearly a year now.
With what? A std SMG with prof 0 and no damage mods? The current single-shot flaylock? Doubtful. The "sidearm as viable main weapon" argument fails miserably if you are not using proto.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
458
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Posted - 2013.11.26 20:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
RKKR wrote:John Demonsbane wrote: The "sidearm as viable main weapon" argument fails miserably if you are not using proto. Wrong, you quoted some dude in your signature, maybe you have to use his wisdom when in the battlefield when using a sidearm only.
Sure, I'll just sit behind cover all battle in my slow Amarr suit while the guy with the RR or newly range-buffed AR shoots at me from 100m away with pinpoint accuracy. Meanwhile everyone is running out of ammo and can't get reps or spawn.
Besides, didn't you just say you thought it would be a bad decision on CCPs part? I don't get it.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
459
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Posted - 2013.11.26 20:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:[quote=Evicer][quote=Maximus Stryker]The easy fix is to nerf CPU/PG significantly so it's impossible to fit a pimped out tank with a pimped out weapon. Then give a huge bonus CPU/PG reduction to certain equipment (like nanohives, needles, reppers, etc.). This would result in them being able to use great gear, but with lower tier weapons, or a great weapon with a weaker tank.
Also, as TTK get's fixed, speed will play more of a factor in the overall survivability of a suit. This will hurt the logi some because it's drawback will be more significant. actually the easy fix is leave everything alone and simply remove light weapon from logi Speak for yourself, I've been running a Sidearm-Only Logi for nearly a year now.
Quote: People who like being logis will be fine, the only people upset are the ones who like slaying in a logi suit so they still have equipment slots. ishucone SMG kicks butt up close, if you get close to me, you will likely die.
It does indeed. Pretty sure new players thinking about going into logistics won't have access to them, however.
And just to make things clear, my KDR sucks and my K/WP ratio is like 150 - kills account for only 1/3 of my career WP. Every one of my suits uses all equip slots and I can count on one hand the number of tines I've used a duvolle. I'm not even close to a murderlogi and I'm telling you this idea is shortsighted and will destroy the logistics class. There are far better ways to change the balance between assault and logi suits.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
460
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Posted - 2013.11.26 21:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
RKKR wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:RKKR wrote:John Demonsbane wrote: The "sidearm as viable main weapon" argument fails miserably if you are not using proto. Wrong, you quoted some dude in your signature, maybe you have to use his wisdom when in the battlefield when using a sidearm only. Sure, I'll just sit behind cover all battle in my slow Amarr suit while the guy with the RR or newly range-buffed AR shoots at me from 100m away with pinpoint accuracy. Meanwhile everyone is running out of ammo and can't get reps or spawn. Besides, didn't you just say you thought it would be a bad decision on CCPs part? I don't get it. I did it with my slow-ass gallente back in the days when armor still sucked. Your situation is the fault of your teammates and your bad positioning, but we can discuss this endless, take it however you want. Yes, because changing the logi-suit isn't going to solve the problems of this game and yes I would rather have my logi not restricted to side-arms only, but that doesn't mean that the quoted text isn't untrue.
Whatever, dude, you're a "better" player than me. So what?; It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, because using the relatively small number of people with well above average gungame with proto SMG's at prof 5 who have been doing it for months because it fits their style of play is hardly generalizable to the rest of the population.
Just because your particular style of play doesn't get affected doesn't mean it's a good idea. Did any of you run sidearm only at, say, ADV level? standard? In every situation? On every map?
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
460
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Posted - 2013.11.26 21:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote: Limit equipment use and WP? You are everything I hate about this community. Truly.
+1.
I'd actually just like to take a second from the rage and QQ and trolling (which I admittedly am sometimes guilty of myself, not just pointing fingers here) and say something nice: I have more respect for Molon Labe than 98% of the selfish tryhard a*hole collections we call corps in this game. It helps that I tend to agree with your opinons, of course, but I've squadded with and against you guys and after I hitchhiked into one of your squads you were nice enough to invite me to your teamsync channel so I could keep doing it whenever I wanted.
I still have nightmares about the OP and his freedom MD in the gallente production facility, of course, but I still need to try and arrange those STD suit-only battles he offered us. Also a class move.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
460
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Posted - 2013.11.26 21:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
RKKR wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
Whatever, dude, you're a "better" player than me. So what?; It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, because using the relatively small number of people with well above average gungame with proto SMG's at prof 5 who have been doing it for months because it fits their style of play is hardly generalizable to the rest of the population.
Just because your particular style of play doesn't get affected doesn't mean it's a good idea. Did any of you run sidearm only at, say, ADV level? standard? In every situation? On every map?
I never claimed to be a "better" player, just saying you might want to use the side-arms in a different way before you start making wrong statements. Did I say it was a good idea? Actually I only have the SMG up to ADV, and I had been using the STD for a long while. Read my last line of the previous post again, thank you. As I said we could discuss this endlessly, take it however you want.
I phrased it improperly, most of that wasn't directed at you in particular, you are in fact the first person not to use the ishukone as an example of why this is a great idea.
The first line is of course, because, I'm sorry if I misunderstood but most of the people/trolls around here who make a statement like yours are basically trying to wave their epeen around. My apologies if that was not the case, this whole massive pile of nerftard sewage I've been subjected to the last few weeks is getting to me!
I run a fair amount of AV with an ADV sidearm, so I am familiar with using it as a primary anti-infantry weapon, and sure, it works great in CQC. But, an AR is basically a full auto sniper from 60-90m now, and most of these maps are pretty wide open. It's not that easy to keep yourself out of situations where some fool with a starter fit can cut you down pretty quickly.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
462
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Posted - 2013.11.26 22:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:John Demonsbane wrote: With what? A std SMG with prof 0 and no damage mods? The current single-shot flaylock? Doubtful. The "sidearm as viable main weapon" argument fails miserably if you are not using proto.
I've got Sidearm Logi fits with all four Sidearm variants we have. I've run every tier of Flaylock, Scrambler Pistol and SMG as well as Nova Knives upto Advanced. I've been running these since I had no more than a BPO for Scrambler Pistols/SMGs and Operation 1 for Flaylocks and Nova Knives so I know exactly what it is like without Proficiency and damage mods. Currently, most of my fits are rocking BPO weapons, though there are some ADV in there as well as a Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol ad Viziam Scrambler Pistol thrown in for good measure. Personally, if I am just goofing off, there is nothing more fun than running a nova knife logi (it's super effective at pissing off AR dumbasses who go straight back to the same place). So yeah, I'd appreciate it if you didn't tell me that my primary weapons "fail miserably if you're not using proto" csuse it just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.
That's fine, I retract my statement as nobody before today has ever stated that they regularly run BPO sidearms when challenged the last 5 threads I've asked the question in. BTW, no way I'm ever trying nova nives on an amarr logi suit, thats for sure! I still suspect you have some maxed fitting skills that make it easier for you to do it, but mostly, I stand by my point that there is only a minority of people here who have the skillz to rock sidearms only in a majority of situations on a majority of maps. They don't represent the general population and are not really an appropriate group on which to base sweeping changes to an entire class of suit across all 4 races.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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