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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Salvaged items. And stuff you buy no longer want and sell back
Buy won't be that active until we get Indy. Without industry you'd just see the ISK farming corps buy up EVERYTHING, and then refuse to sell it, effectively choking out the majority of the "competition" before it even got up and running.
Not likely to happen. If prices are too high, then consumers will stop buying and switch to something else. Then the suppliers end up wasting money and time as they have to constantly keep buying up all the stuff going on market every second of every day that is trying to undercut their artificially inflated prices. In the end it's not worth it.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Salvaged items. And stuff you buy no longer want and sell back
Buy won't be that active until we get Indy. Without industry you'd just see the ISK farming corps buy up EVERYTHING, and then refuse to sell it, effectively choking out the majority of the "competition" before it even got up and running. This is exactly what worries me. I'm guessing that we won't be seeing the end of the NPC sellers any time soon. Players will have to undercut them in order to sell their salvage and other unwanted gear. NPCs will effectively set the high end for pricing except for officer gear. If that is bought up they'll end up making those that find it in salvage very rich. Once that gear is too expensive even the rich mercs will hesitate to waste it in anything other than tournaments.
This is probably how it will be implemented at the start. Back in the beginning of EVE they did the same with items on the market until the player industrial complex was able to catch up and stabilize. I would think the same would apply for initial DUST market items.
CCP does have an actual economist on their staff last I knew that actually watches the market trends in the game for any out of control situations. It's been like 10 years and it's still working.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I was pondering today, how exactly would this work.
If the market is controlled only by players, where would players acquire the Items to be sold in the Market?
In order to have a sustainable economy in DUST, players would need a method harvesting resources, researching technology, and producing the infantry gear and vehicles we would expect to see in the market.
Is the goal to only have EVE players manufacture DUST infantry Vehicles and Gear? What happens when EVE players decide to arbitrarily drive up the cost of Infantry Items to the Point of DUST players not being able to afford them? Would everyone without EVE contacts or Corp Members, or a PC ISK farm be forced to use only Starter fits? This would elevate the current Epidemic of Protostomping into Pandemic status.
What are some of your thoughts on this, CCP? What direction are you taking when the implementation of a Player market becomes a reality? EVE Online, man. Why would anyone in their right mind want to build things in a shooter? Just let the EVE players do it. And please don't anyone start spouting ******** bullshit about how EVE players will make GEK's 3 million each just to spite us. People who do industry are in it for the MONEY. If they don't make MONEY they go bankrupt. Therefore it is in the best interest of all the players producing assets to make them affordable so that we will buy them and they will make money. This is ground-floor basic economics people. Stop being scared of getting worked over and look at the big picture. With the disparity between DUST and EVE ISK, you'd have to imagine that the cost to produce items in EVE would end up being more than they're worth in DUST, thus making it so that, at least for a while, no one would bother manufacturing for DUST unless it was for their alliance / corp and they were being compensated EVE side, since DUST side would only lose them money. We need PvE and real salvage, is what we need.
Except that if the EVE players try to put the stuff up for those outrageous prices they will make no money as no one (or very few) would buy them at that cost. So eventually it would stabilize on its own as others would undercut those prices and others would undercut the undercut (market PVP is an actual thing in EVE online) and eventually you get to a reasonable price.
But I doubt that is how CCP will implement it to start. I see them having NPC vendors seeding normal variants of stuff initially at the prices we are used to (possibly a little higher to encourage others to produce for less) and then that will keep initial costs down and reduce starting market shock. Then as time goes on and the market is stably supplied by players, they will remove the NPCs from the market.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mdog 24158 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I was pondering today, how exactly would this work.
If the market is controlled only by players, where would players acquire the Items to be sold in the Market?
In order to have a sustainable economy in DUST, players would need a method harvesting resources, researching technology, and producing the infantry gear and vehicles we would expect to see in the market.
Is the goal to only have EVE players manufacture DUST infantry Vehicles and Gear? What happens when EVE players decide to arbitrarily drive up the cost of Infantry Items to the Point of DUST players not being able to afford them? Would everyone without EVE contacts or Corp Members, or a PC ISK farm be forced to use only Starter fits? This would elevate the current Epidemic of Protostomping into Pandemic status.
What are some of your thoughts on this, CCP? What direction are you taking when the implementation of a Player market becomes a reality? In pc when you own a district you should be allowed to build industry on it that provides resources eve players can buy
No! This would actually cause more problems than it would solve! Right now corps that produce surplus clones are selling them for ISK and generating a huge PASSIVE income. This makes many corps VERY rich and creates a lot of the "proto-stomping" complaints that you all hear right now. So by opening it up to even MORE items that they can get rich off of by PASSIVELY doing nothing would only create the situation that EVE finally overcame with moon mineral mining recently.
Some passive income for holding a PC is ok as that encourages competition and war. Too much makes it unbalanced.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I was pondering today, how exactly would this work.
If the market is controlled only by players, where would players acquire the Items to be sold in the Market?
In order to have a sustainable economy in DUST, players would need a method harvesting resources, researching technology, and producing the infantry gear and vehicles we would expect to see in the market.
Is the goal to only have EVE players manufacture DUST infantry Vehicles and Gear? What happens when EVE players decide to arbitrarily drive up the cost of Infantry Items to the Point of DUST players not being able to afford them? Would everyone without EVE contacts or Corp Members, or a PC ISK farm be forced to use only Starter fits? This would elevate the current Epidemic of Protostomping into Pandemic status.
What are some of your thoughts on this, CCP? What direction are you taking when the implementation of a Player market becomes a reality? EVE Online, man. Why would anyone in their right mind want to build things in a shooter? Just let the EVE players do it. And please don't anyone start spouting ******** bullshit about how EVE players will make GEK's 3 million each just to spite us. People who do industry are in it for the MONEY. If they don't make MONEY they go bankrupt. Therefore it is in the best interest of all the players producing assets to make them affordable so that we will buy them and they will make money. This is ground-floor basic economics people. Stop being scared of getting worked over and look at the big picture. With the disparity between DUST and EVE ISK, you'd have to imagine that the cost to produce items in EVE would end up being more than they're worth in DUST, thus making it so that, at least for a while, no one would bother manufacturing for DUST unless it was for their alliance / corp and they were being compensated EVE side, since DUST side would only lose them money. We need PvE and real salvage, is what we need. Dust mercs go through their gear much faster. Losing 10 proto suits (battleships) within the space of 15 minutes is extremely rare.
Comparing a fully fit proto suit to a fully fit battleship is like comparing apples to 747 jetliners... They are not the same. A fully fit battleship for PVP in EVE online can cost between 100 million ISK to over 1 billion ISK. And they would never fly alone for PVP purposes, only in fleets.
A proto suit is still just a "frigate" while a fully upgraded tank might be a better comparison to a battleship in your analogy and people are definitely not loosing 10 of those in 15 minutes.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:All it takes is the resource cost being exceptionally low, which it would be because the assets are so small.
Also, I just had a short conversation on this with Cat Merc, and thought it might address the pricing issue some have brought up even further:
[10:13:35 AM] Cheshire Cat: Yeah, Dust players are scared of EVE players setting the prices too high
[10:14:02 AM] Cheshire Cat: In that case I would just go into EVE, create a fuckton of weapons at a reasonable price, and laugh as the attempts of those trying to **** with Dust go to waste
[10:14:12 AM] Midnight(Mobius): EXACTLY
[10:14:21 AM] Cheshire Cat: AND make a quick buck out of it
[10:14:25 AM] Midnight(Mobius): All it takes is ONE guy undercutting all the assholes, and they all lose everything
[10:14:35 AM] Midnight(Mobius): And that one guy is rolling in ISK while being a hero while he's at it
This pretty much sums it up. Anyone actually producing Dust assets cannot take the risk of being undercut, same as it is with EVE.
I figure that, just like they said at FanFest 2013, industry would be best left to the game which has had a lot of people gaining a lot of experience in this stuff over several years, and has a robust economy that will do a good job of controlling pricing and keeping everything affordable. Hey, I'd love to have my EVE character pumping out gear for me, the main thing though is finding a balance where A.) the resources are less costly than what they're sold for and B.) not so cheap that there is no reason to ever not produce your own gear. I'm not too in the know on how industry works, I just know that there is so much room for abuse with a system like that. I can make hundreds of millions of ISK in EVE just being the total noob that I am, if I could just make gear for myself, contract it to me for 1 ISK per piece of gear....what's to stop me from always running proto until the end of time?
Nothing stops you from having and EVE alt selling stuff at a LOSS to your DUST player. But for the fact that the materials need to make your proto-suits will not be FREE, the time to rent the factory in EVE to make the suits will not be FREE, and the cost of the Blueprints as well as the cost to research those blueprints will also not be FREE. Thus you will succeed at transferring all your DUST costs to your EVE character that will have to find a way to finance all that stuff.
You cannot rob Peter to pay for Paul.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
69
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Rogue Saint wrote:NPC's will still seed the market, EvE players will then have to undercut the price of the NPC's ... Simple. The price *should* never go above the NPC price, end result being we get cheaper items.
The economics of this will be at the EvE side with material costs etc. Temporary yes. But not permanently. Eventually the npc supply will need to be removed and finally let the players have total control of the supply. Only if manufacturing is allowed in dust, which I god hope will never happen. The dust market has to have a base price and a base supply. Until mercs can affect the resource supply needed, either by capturing Planetary Infrastructure or whatever, the EvE economy will prevail over dust. As for material costs on the EvE side, not really an issue, the price can be high if the amount of end product is high too i.e. 5000 GEK's for a single BP run. The sale price of those GEK's will be reduced.
You're thinking of it wrong. Right now there are two separate economies (big mistake in my opinion), but once merged, there will be only one. No need for DUST to produce anything at that point. Initial base price will be set by NPC sales in EVE (which is the same market as DUST at that point) which will be the same or comparable to what we pay now. However cost to produce the same products by EVE players (material cost) will be set lower than that so that they (the EVE manufacturers) can produce and sell at a price lower than the NPC prices.
Right now 1 run of an ammunition blueprint in EVE produces like 10,000 pieces of ammunition. I would think it would be the same for DUST items. 1 run = 10,0000 items. But that's just a guess.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
70
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rogue Saint wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Rogue Saint wrote:NPC's will still seed the market, EvE players will then have to undercut the price of the NPC's ... Simple. The price *should* never go above the NPC price, end result being we get cheaper items.
The economics of this will be at the EvE side with material costs etc. Temporary yes. But not permanently. Eventually the npc supply will need to be removed and finally let the players have total control of the supply. Only if manufacturing is allowed in dust, which I god hope will never happen. The dust market has to have a base price and a base supply. Until mercs can affect the resource supply needed, either by capturing Planetary Infrastructure or whatever, the EvE economy will prevail over dust. As for material costs on the EvE side, not really an issue, the price can be high if the amount of end product is high too i.e. 5000 GEK's for a single BP run. The sale price of those GEK's will be reduced. Why shouldn't Dust mercs be capable of manufacturing?
Because they don't have access to acquire the raw ore it takes to refine into the minerals used to make stuff. They don't have access to the refining processors to refine that ore into the minerals. They don't have access to the research facilities needed to research the blueprints. They don't have access to the factories needed to combine the blueprints with the minerals to produce the items. And finally they don't have the marketing skills to put up market orders... wait a sec... crap...
Okay each of those things has an entire skill tree associated with it. Mining skills, refining/ore processing skills, science and researching skills, production and manufacturing skills, and finally marketing and trading skills. But if CCP allows DUST mercs to sell and trade items on the market, then they either need to provide those skills (marketing and trading) to the DUST guys or instead assume that the DUST mercs have level 0 in those and gouge them on taxes and fees as a consequence.
But my original point is you don't want DUST mercs sitting around spending skill points on all that lame stuff. We're talking 10's of millions of skillpoints that would be wasted for a DUST merc to just produce one thing from start to finish assuming he could somehow find and asteroid belt in space and mine it with ship mining lasers. Not gonna happen.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
70
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Rogue Saint wrote:I'm sure CCP are aware of that, I know I will be doing the same. CCP are happy though, they get you paying/playing for your EvE subscription. Hey man, I'm not arguing for or against at this point, just trying to provide some more viewpoints for the debate. It seems like if you'd want to thrive at DUST, you'd need an EVE account, or at the very least be good friends with someone who does. I can see why they've waited so long to merge the economies in any way though, what with all the different ways to abuse it.
Actually I would argue just the opposite. CCP has gone to great lengths to ensure that you DO NOT need and EVE account or EVE support to play the game if you don't want it. Yeah it's nice to have the options that EVE orbital support supplies, but it's not absolutely necessary to play the game.
In fact that was the whole REASON why they made DUST 514 a console only thing when they could have made it for the PC instead. They didn't want it to cut into their PC subscriber market share. That would be like Ford producing a truck for $20,000 and then undercutting themselves the same year with another truck for only $10,000 that had the same load capacity. They wanted to branch out to a whole new demographic of customers as well as a new scheme of payment.
Yeah in the long run EVE players producing reasons for DUST mercs to fight is the goal, but that should never require a DUST player to have to have an EVE account.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
70
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:DUST Fiend wrote: It seems like if you'd want to thrive at DUST, you'd need an EVE account, or at the very least be good friends with someone who does.
I can see why they've waited so long to merge the economies in any way though, what with all the different ways to abuse it. Agreed. Going back to your other point though, whats the difference in me buying the BPO, mining all the resources, Moon Mining and reacting the more exotic stuff and then using PI to get the missing parts? It's what I've done for years in EvE to get "free" ships. The cost to me is my time.
Actually it's more than your time in that case. Assuming your character does everything from start to finish, then you still have to pay for ore reprocessing costs as well as production factory time. Additionally you paid for the blueprint originals at some point. Also you had to buy all the skill books needed to train all those skills. And lastly, you pay for the subscription to EVE to do all those things.
The idea of "FREE STUFFS" in EVE is wrong.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
70
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Jadd Hatchen wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Salvaged items. And stuff you buy no longer want and sell back
Buy won't be that active until we get Indy. Without industry you'd just see the ISK farming corps buy up EVERYTHING, and then refuse to sell it, effectively choking out the majority of the "competition" before it even got up and running. Not likely to happen. If prices are too high, then consumers will stop buying and switch to something else. Then the suppliers end up wasting money and time as they have to constantly keep buying up all the stuff going on market every second of every day that is trying to undercut their artificially inflated prices. In the end it's not worth it. But if you could buy up, say, all the prototype ARs and Scrambler rifles, you would simply dominate any PC match ever because the enemy wouldn't be able to field the most basic of equipment because they couldn't buy it. When you consider the insane amount of ISK some corps are sitting on, it's far from out of the question. It might not turn a direct profit since you aren't selling those weapons, but it turns a profit because no one can shake you from your planets, and you just rake in insane ISK each day because you've got all the gear.
You also have to take into account the "insane amounts of market PVP" that occurs in EVE online. The EVE market is insanely HUGE and there are many many players that do nothing other than poll the markets for money making opportunities.
Besides, as stated above by others, CCP will initially have NPC manufacturers set the high-end prices and EVE players will only be able to price-fix to a point.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
70
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:They'll be AFKing in FW to earn LP to sell you LP gear.
That will be the industry until they remove all ISK, SP, and LP generation from passive participation in battles.
If they can first find a way to AFK in a match and not get booted, then good on them. Then they will succeed in ruining their win/loss ratios or at the least earn 0 warpoints as a result (as well as having crappy KDR). No one will want them for anything.
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