DUST Search - The Logi Solution

Ripley Riley wrote:

John Demonsbane wrote:

I thought I already talked you out of this. Only if every std logi suit comes with a pre-installed no skills needed six kin or ishukkne SMG. Even then most of us would still be dead meat once the new rifles come out and the AR and ScR get range buffs.

Wholesale murder isn't your role. Leave that to assault, scout, and heavies. Logistics' role is to support your squad mates by being a equipment Swiss army knife. You CAN do damage, but you shouldn't be good at it. Just like an assault suit CAN use a repair gun, but shouldn't be good at it.

John Demonsbane wrote:

Problem number 2, which is "How this idea is built on a false premise and will destroy the logistics class"

TechMechMeds suggested sidearms only a month or so ago, and I talked him out of it. My argument is this. He, like probably the rest of you who actually play logistics and think this is a good idea (people who don't play logistics are not qualified to comment here, sorry) likely base it on the fact that you run sidearm only (probably SMG, maybe some ScP) and still kill a lot of people...
IN YOUR PROTO SUIT WITH AN ISHUKONE SMG (and probably proficiency 5).

So, are you going to give away a free no skill requirement ishukone SMG with every basic logi suit? No? Well, guess what, nobody will ever decide to play logistics again. Even if a lot of us don't just abandon the class, it will die a slow death of attrition because nobody in their right mind will go into it!

Why? Picture yourself as a new player. One hour after you make your toon, you are done with the academy and start getting protostomped. Relentlessly. In a way that none of us that started in beta can identify with because there just weren't as many proto players.

Obviously their train of thought will be exactly like this: Boy, I sure do love getting crushed every single battle I play. Nothing beats going 1/12 with 75 WP! If only I could make this experience better somehow.... *slaps forehead* OF COURSE! I can limit myself to just a sidearm! Running around in a STD logi suit with my militia SMG will make me so OP! Good thing I have a toxin BPO to make it a little easier... Oh shoot, they don't offer those anymore. Oh well.

No one in their right mind will decide to become a logi! Hooray, we fixed Dust! Everyone has a gallente assault suit and an AR now. Man this is paradise. That's funny, I don't remember running out of ammo so easily before. Weird.

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Shruikan Iceeye 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 99	Posted - 2013.11.25 17:53:00 - [1] - Quote Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1351	Posted - 2013.11.25 17:56:00 - [2] - Quote Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. But Cal Logis were fine and didn't need a nerf, the TARs were alright and didn't need to be nerfed, the flaylocks were fine and didn't need to be nerfed................ Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Viktor Hadah Jr Critical-Impact 1220	Posted - 2013.11.25 17:57:00 - [3] - Quote to be honest just stacking the 2pg and 10cpu compact nanohives will not change assault logi much. For the Empire Dual tanking is a sin BPO's are bad for economy, Respec's are bad for the game. Want to fight about it?
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 45	Posted - 2013.11.25 17:58:00 - [4] - Quote That's a horrible idea.
Shruikan Iceeye 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 99	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:04:00 - [5] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: That's a horrible idea. Please point out why and/or present an alternative Thanks
Ripley Riley Pheonix Corp Selectus 39	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:08:00 - [6] - Quote Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. You know what else will stop Duvolles? Remove logistics light weapons entirely. Sidearms only. BPOs, in their current state, negatively effect the economy. I say that as a someone who bought the elite pack.
Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 171	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:15:00 - [7] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: to be honest just stacking the 2pg and 10cpu compact nanohives will not change assault logi much. all skills at 5 Gallente Assault: 394 cpu , 79pg Gallente Logi ( 4 compacts ): 490 cpu, 96pg Caldari Assault: 394 cpu , 79pg Caldari Logi ( 3 compacts ): 437cpu , 96pg He is right :o. If we did it so it had to be a different item each then it wouldn't have much of an impact either. Will my fit work? Dust 514 Fitting Tool
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1494	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:18:00 - [8] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. You know what else will stop Duvolles? Remove logistics light weapons entirely. Sidearms only. Provided amarr gets to carry two sidearms as it is supposed to be more combat focused then I agree. Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. Fix PC lag please CCP.
Aisha Ctarl 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 1828	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:19:00 - [9] - Quote The Real Logi Solution - Get rid of the built in Complex Armor Repairer when Logi Level V is reached, you'll see a mass exodus from the Logi suits. "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited." -The Code of Demeanor
Ripley Riley Pheonix Corp Selectus 40	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:29:00 - [10] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Provided Amarr gets to carry two sidearms as it is supposed to be more combat focused then I agree. Sounds reasonable. I would be okay with that. BPOs, in their current state, negatively effect the economy. I say that as a someone who bought the elite pack.

Robocop Junior Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 385	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:32:00 - [11] - Quote Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. I agreed up until that last part. So you see some dude who has got the glow like Bruce Leeroy and charge right at him? This reminds me of.....oh ya bringing a derpship up to a tower where a heavy is FGing. I will give you the same advice people give for that scenario.....drop an orbital:)
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1934	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:41:00 - [12] - Quote Give assault suits offensive racially oriented bonuses. Give logistics suits defensive racially oriented bonuses. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 448	Posted - 2013.11.25 19:04:00 - [13] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Give assault suits offensive racially oriented bonuses. Give logistics suits defensive racially oriented bonuses. gasp LOGIC?!?!! It must be a witch! Burn it! Burn it! "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 448	Posted - 2013.11.25 19:07:00 - [14] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. You know what else will stop Duvolles? Remove logistics light weapons entirely. Sidearms only. Provided amarr gets to carry two sidearms as it is supposed to be more combat focused then I agree. I thought I already talked you out of this. Only if every std logi suit comes with a pre-installed no skills needed six kin or ishukkne SMG. Even then most of us would still be dead meat once the new rifles come out and the AR and ScR get range buffs. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Ripley Riley Pheonix Corp Selectus 40	Posted - 2013.11.25 20:03:00 - [15] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I thought I already talked you out of this. Only if every std logi suit comes with a pre-installed no skills needed six kin or ishukkne SMG. Even then most of us would still be dead meat once the new rifles come out and the AR and ScR get range buffs. Wholesale murder isn't your role. Leave that to assault, scout, and heavies. Logistics' role is to support your squad mates by being a equipment Swiss army knife. You CAN do damage, but you shouldn't be good at it. Just like an assault suit CAN use a repair gun, but shouldn't be good at it. BPOs, in their current state, negatively effect the economy. I say that as a someone who bought the elite pack.
Scheherazade VII 196	Posted - 2013.11.25 20:04:00 - [16] - Quote The solution is to remove a lot of the slots which logis have, perhaps introduce a stacking bonus for health modules. And finally, make equipment cheaper. GêÜGëêDUST VIDEOSGëêGêÜ
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 1029	Posted - 2013.11.25 20:32:00 - [17] - Quote Logi's do NOT need fixing. The other clases need a buff, so they work in their roles I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
Pje251296 KILL ORDERS 157	Posted - 2013.11.25 20:43:00 - [18] - Quote Give the assault suits weapon skills like improved ammo and magazine capacity, reload, less dispersion and less pg/cpu for all weapons.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 449	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:30:00 - [19] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I thought I already talked you out of this. Only if every std logi suit comes with a pre-installed no skills needed six kin or ishukkne SMG. Even then most of us would still be dead meat once the new rifles come out and the AR and ScR get range buffs. Wholesale murder isn't your role. Leave that to assault, scout, and heavies. Logistics' role is to support your squad mates by being a equipment Swiss army knife. You CAN do damage, but you shouldn't be good at it. Just like an assault suit CAN use a repair gun, but shouldn't be good at it. Scouts? Lol. You people are missing the point. I have two previous posts on the topic that I'll just leave here: John Demonsbane wrote: Problem number 2, which is "How this idea is built on a false premise and will destroy the logistics class" TechMechMeds suggested sidearms only a month or so ago, and I talked him out of it. My argument is this. He, like probably the rest of you who actually play logistics and think this is a good idea (people who don't play logistics are not qualified to comment here, sorry) likely base it on the fact that you run sidearm only (probably SMG, maybe some ScP) and still kill a lot of people... IN YOUR PROTO SUIT WITH AN ISHUKONE SMG (and probably proficiency 5). So, are you going to give away a free no skill requirement ishukone SMG with every basic logi suit? No? Well, guess what, nobody will ever decide to play logistics again. Even if a lot of us don't just abandon the class, it will die a slow death of attrition because nobody in their right mind will go into it! Why? Picture yourself as a new player. One hour after you make your toon, you are done with the academy and start getting protostomped. Relentlessly. In a way that none of us that started in beta can identify with because there just weren't as many proto players. Obviously their train of thought will be exactly like this: Boy, I sure do love getting crushed every single battle I play. Nothing beats going 1/12 with 75 WP! If only I could make this experience better somehow.... slaps forehead OF COURSE! I can limit myself to just a sidearm! Running around in a STD logi suit with my militia SMG will make me so OP! Good thing I have a toxin BPO to make it a little easier... Oh shoot, they don't offer those anymore. Oh well. No one in their right mind will decide to become a logi! Hooray, we fixed Dust! Everyone has a gallente assault suit and an AR now. Man this is paradise. That's funny, I don't remember running out of ammo so easily before. Weird. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 449	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:34:00 - [20] - Quote Guess I put them backwards. Oh well. John Demonsbane wrote: My head hurts. OK, many years ago in The Simpsons, the school strikes oil and poll their employees as to how to spend the money. The lunch lady comes in and says: lunch lady Doris wrote: "The staff are complaining about the mice in the kitchen...." "I want to hire a new staff!" Logi bro said it himself, the problem is logis not using equipment. So, here's what we get: [quote=Logi bro] "The logistics players aren't using their equipment....." "Let's take away their weapons!" How does taking away a light weapon fix the problem of people not filling equipment slots? Oh, right, it doesn't! You are solving one problem by causing an entirely new and worse one? Brilliant! CCP hire this man immediately! Here's a novel idea, if we identify a problem, perhaps we could solve that actual problem. It's just crazy enough to work. If you think that logistics suits are problems because people don't use equipment, maybe we should get them to use equipment! Make the suits such that the fitting is not valid unless the equipment slots are full. My god, this isn't freaking rocket surgery. [quote] "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!

Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1766	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:36:00 - [21] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. You know what else will stop Duvolles? Remove logistics light weapons entirely. Sidearms only. Provided amarr gets to carry two sidearms as it is supposed to be more combat focused then I agree. NO!!!!! IF MY AMARR LOGI LOSES HIS SCRAM RIFLE AND IS STUCK WITH 2 SIDEARMS, I WILL LEAVE. AMARR LOGI IS BALANCED WITH ITS ASSAULT COUNTERPART. LEAVE MY FREAKING AMARR LOGI ALONE!!!!!! "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 449	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:41:00 - [22] - Quote In conclusion, the answer is not to gimp logi's into defenseless pack mules totally at the mercy of the other classes. I am NOT a murder logi. My K/WP ratio is 150, meaning only 1/3 of my career WP are from kills. None of my fits have a single empty equipment slot. Ergo, I am not trying to protect the logi as killing machine model for my own benefit. The answer is to encourage (not force) them to use the suit for it's "intended" purpose, to carry battlefield equipment. For any suit except the gallente with it's equipment bonus, simply forcing them to fill all equipment slots is a very simple way to do this that keeps them from being total murder machines. So you could either change that bonus and make everyone fit equipment, or give every logi suit that bonus, make a SMALL reduction to the CPU/PG of each suit so that you can make the same fits you do now if you use quality equipment, but you can't make the full on murderlogi suit (which is a bit overblown, btw) everyone whines about. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Lavirac JR DUST University Ivy League 154	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:42:00 - [23] - Quote Let me cut this baby in half like Solomon Grundy would.... Give Assault suits a 15% bonus to light and sidearm weapon damage. Assault suits are then assault suits and fill the slayzor role. Us logos can focus on heals, placing bombs, nano hives, etc... Heavies can be heavies. And scouts can just well suffer I guess... A would be logi looking for heavies in all the wrong places.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5403	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:43:00 - [24] - Quote This is not a solution. My Gallente logistics has every equipment slot filled and still far, far outperforms a Gallente assault fitted similarly. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 449	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:46:00 - [25] - Quote Lavirac JR wrote: Let me cut this baby in half like Solomon Grundy would.... Give Assault suits a 15% bonus to light and sidearm weapon damage. Assault suits are then assault suits and fill the slayzor role. Us logos can focus on heals, placing bombs, nano hives, etc... Heavies can be heavies. And scouts can just well suffer I guess... Whoa, 15% is way too high. Holy crap an Amarr assault with a imperial scrambler and 2-3 complex damage mods would utterly wreck everyone without a thought. Make it 1% per level, so you get a "free" enhanced damage mod (that doesn't give a stacking penalty, remember) at level 5. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Lavirac JR DUST University Ivy League 154	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:53:00 - [26] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Lavirac JR wrote: Let me cut this baby in half like Solomon Grundy would.... Give Assault suits a 15% bonus to light and sidearm weapon damage. Assault suits are then assault suits and fill the slayzor role. Us logos can focus on heals, placing bombs, nano hives, etc... Heavies can be heavies. And scouts can just well suffer I guess... Whoa, 15% is way too high. Holy crap an Amarr assault with a imperial scrambler and 2-3 complex damage mods would utterly wreck everyone without a thought. Make it 1% per level, so you get a "free" enhanced damage mod (that doesn't give a stacking penalty, remember) at level 5. 15% is high, but I am someone who usually suggests the high number first. I'd still prefer a little bit more than 5%, whatever would give assaults a decided damage advantage over other suits. A would be logi looking for heavies in all the wrong places.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 154	Posted - 2013.11.25 21:57:00 - [27] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Shruikan Iceeye wrote: Make Logis fill equipment slots. Or a certain amount of slots. Or make Assault oriented Modules carry a larger cpu/pg penalty for Logis. Or make it so the more equipment slots they fill, more cpu/pg becomes available (this would penalize not filling them up while not restricting beginners without much equipment) Going up against GalLogis safely within two armor repping nanohives, toting Duvolles has to stop. You know what else will stop Duvolles? Remove logistics light weapons entirely. Sidearms only. Provided amarr gets to carry two sidearms as it is supposed to be more combat focused then I agree. Ok then delete Logi suits. Won't be used anymore. You want ammo ? Go ** yourself and go melee. Oh wait Assault got equipements ? HA. This idea sucks. Assault are already better than Logi you're just bad at the game. If we listen you a milita assault should kill Proto Logistics easily....... I'm a 16 Million SP logistics Suits optimized to Support Battle. (Amarr Logi.) I don't lie at what i do i wanted a Logi suits able To be a Medical/Ammo support BUT ALSO a support fire.** Amarr Logi IS THE LOGI BATTLE SUIT. I don't lie on what i'm doing. I think you guys don't know wht makes a suit a battle suits. It's not more weapon or a secondary. (2 secondary is as useful than a HMG on a Scout LOL.). It's about the Self-Repair. It's about the Health Bonus (Amarr) and the Slots. I optimized my suit since 5 Months Perfectly balanced between support ( In proto i use at least 25% of PG/CPU in equipements) and eHP. (I'm Logi i don't use damager) I don't see why an assault with 8 million Sp less should kill me in a blink of an eye.


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