DUST Search - We all know logistics will be getting something done...

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Which is why I gave the suggestion to remove the 10% buff from all weapons. At assault 5, the normal ttk would be back, while everyone else would have a longer ttk.

The justification is every suit class gives up something to improve something else. Assaults give up survivability for damage. Logis give up damage for survivability. Among heavy suits, commandos give up survivability for two light weapons, and regular heavies give up adaptability for heavy weapons and survivability. Scouts give up survivability for speed.

Making logis the same or weaker than assaults removes one of the benefits of choosing them. Currently the failing isn't with logis being good, its assaults being bad, because they have a bonus that only applies to half of the suits, and its a bonus that doesn't help them kill the enemy. Logis can outlive and outdps them, which breaks the give-and-take model. Thus, we need to make it to where logis can survive longer and assaults can kill faster.

Let's look at it differently. Both assault and logistics are based off of the basic frame of whatever race, right? Assaults can deal more damage than this basic frame, and logis can survive longer than thus basic frame. In the current model, logis can kill faster and survive longer, breaking the model. This isn't logis needing to be nerfed, but assaults needing to be buffed.


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Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 76	Posted - 2013.11.21 21:27:00 - [1] - Quote I just don't get why a support suit would need more module slots than an assault suit. Like, why does that even make sense? Shouldn't the [i][assault/i] suit be able to have more damage, hp, and slightly more speed than the support guys? I don't know, that just seems to make more sense to me.
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 77	Posted - 2013.11.25 10:35:00 - [2] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Why not just remove 1 low slot and 1 high slot Or change the armor rep bonus, that's why people prefer they don't have to waste armor slots on a repper Also it makes far more sense to make dmg mods incompatible in logis rather than remove weapons This all seems pretty reasonable. I think in general most of the logi suit bonuses, and probably a lot of the assault suit bonuses need to change (and the sentinel's, and the commando's while we're at it). Although I don't particularly dislike logis being able to use damage mods, as long as they can't use more than assault suits.
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 78	Posted - 2013.11.25 22:18:00 - [3] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Support logi here. Proof: 2.3 mil WP/11K kills. I need all of you people who are proposing logi nerfs to STFU. Seriously. Your hate of assault oriented logis is going to uber screw us support types. Stop this BS now! How is not allowing logis to fit more health/damage than assaults going to screw them? Why does it even make sense that a support character would be able to fit more health/damage than an assault character?
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 78	Posted - 2013.11.25 22:31:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Because support characters have to run around the battlefield, reviving, healing, scanning, resupplying, uplinking, and other such things that are not killing the enemy. Thus, they need the health to survive, since taking time to kill means taking time away from support. That....doesn't really seem to make sense. I understand that support characters have to do support things. But why do they need more health to do support tasks? Why do they have to be on the literal front-line to support their team? They can't use a rep-tool or drop a nano-hive from behind the line of fire? You're saying they need more health since they aren't shooting at people, but doesn't the opposite make more sense? That the people actively engaging in firefights need more health and damage output? Because that's kinda their role on the battlefield?
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 78	Posted - 2013.11.26 00:31:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Assault needs more damage output, that I do not question. But how can the assaults kill if they're support goes down? Plus, increasing range on tools and hives won't help them rep, because they still have to put them where assaults are fighting, which is the front line. If they did increase the range, the logi is now isolated from the group. I'll give you that slayer logis are annoying as hell, but nerfing logis means its that much harder for us logibros to do our logibroing. Making logis unable to fit damage modifiers is a solution I've heard, but taking the 10% buff off all weapons and giving assault a 2% damage per level bonus instead of shield recharge would make logos deal less damage save for extreme circumstances. Yes, obviously an assault suit will have an advantage with a logi at their side, but that doesn't mean the logi needs more health than them. Maybe the same, sure. But definitely not more. What I'm saying, is if you're firing your rep tool at a squad member, just stand behind them while you do. Don't put yourself in the line of fire, because you're the support guy, it's not your job to take the hits. I never mentioned the ranges of equipment, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. Like I said, just don't be on the literal front-line if you're a logi. There's a slight logical error with your last paragraph. That idea wouldn't make logis do less damage; they would do the same relative to other suits, assaults would just do even more damage.
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 78	Posted - 2013.11.26 09:32:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Which is why I suggested the 2% buff per level. Assault gets damage, logis get survivability. Trade one for the other. The issue now is logis can get the best of both worlds, which is less the logis being OP and assault being UP. Giving assaults 2% per level after removing the 10% damage buff every weapon got goes toward equalizing this. Stand behind is relative to the enemy. Flanking maneuvers put me to the side of the guy I'm repping, relative to the enemy. There are no clear lines. We have to be able to survive no matter where the attacker is. I'm not saying I have to survive all engagements, and clearly I need to attempt to grab cover, but if someone goes down across the road, I have to be able to get across. But standing behind someone assumes clear cut battle lines, and we don't have those. I meant to say less damage compared to an assault suit after the changes. That was my bad. My biggest issue with buffing assault suits is that it will raise the overall power scale of this game even higher, and leave heavies and scouts even further in the dust, which isn't really something I think is a good idea. But I still don't really get it, why do the support guys deserve extra health at all? What's the logic exactly? Yes, flanking is an effective technique if preformed properly. This is already true, and I don't see why adding a level of depth to strategy is a bad thing.
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 78	Posted - 2013.11.27 08:47:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Which is why I gave the suggestion to remove the 10% buff from all weapons. At assault 5, the normal ttk would be back, while everyone else would have a longer ttk. The justification is every suit class gives up something to improve something else. Assaults give up survivability for damage. Logis give up damage for survivability. Among heavy suits, commandos give up survivability for two light weapons, and regular heavies give up adaptability for heavy weapons and survivability. Scouts give up survivability for speed. Making logis the same or weaker than assaults removes one of the benefits of choosing them. Currently the failing isn't with logis being good, its assaults being bad, because they have a bonus that only applies to half of the suits, and its a bonus that doesn't help them kill the enemy. Logis can outlive and outdps them, which breaks the give-and-take model. Thus, we need to make it to where logis can survive longer and assaults can kill faster. Let's look at it differently. Both assault and logistics are based off of the basic frame of whatever race, right? Assaults can deal more damage than this basic frame, and logis can survive longer than thus basic frame. In the current model, logis can kill faster and survive longer, breaking the model. This isn't logis needing to be nerfed, but assaults needing to be buffed. I was under the impression that logis gave up assault suit qualities in exchange for being extra good at supporting other suits. I still see no reason why the support character should out-tank or out-damage the assault character. The benefit of choosing them is supposed to be (at least in my understanding) those bonus equipment slots, solidifying their role as the support unit. Of course, the current logi suit bonuses don't really lend to this specifically, and I would also love to see them changed to be more beneficial to equipment use (something CCP has also said they'd like to do). For the record, I'm also very for removing that 10% damage from weapons and giving assault suits your suggested bonus. I just don't see any actual logical reason the "healers" need to have more health than the frontline soldiers.