|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4645
   |
Posted - 2013.11.21 06:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, yea, lots of QQ about logi's at present. The problems being brought up are the high slot count, large pool of resources to draw from, and just being, in general, better at assaulting than the assaults. The remedies proposed are even worse:
-50% damage on weapons
Sidearm only
Can only wield a rep gun
just to name a few.
Rather than trying to force the logi into a support role by making it worthless in combat, why not make it better at logi'ing (and, while we're at it, making everyone better at their intended role)? Eve Online does a great job of this through ship bonuses. I'll use the Dominix as an example, since it's my favorite ship.
For Eve players, you know where I'm going with this, but for dustbros, let me explain the reasoning behind using this ship as an example. You can draw on your Dust experience for a few assumptions - It's a Gallentean boat, so it probably armor tanks, is good with blasters, and an put up a decent active armor tank.
Except you'd be wrong with one of those assumptions. While the Dominix is capable of fielding six large guns, it has a ship bonus of 10% per level to drone damage, as well as 7.5% to sentry drone optimal / tracking (the wiki shows 10% - this has since been nerfed). Rather than use turrets in your high slots, you'd want to play to your drone strength and fill your highs with drone support modules (namely Drone Link Augmenters, extending your drone control range), and maybe sacrifice a bit of lowslot armor tank for drone damage amplifiers. I mean, who wouldn't try to fit their ship to take advantage of a potential 50% damage bonus?
Here's another good example - Nemesis. Another Gallente boat, this time a wee frigate. Looking at its stats, it appears very fragile. Doesn't like this thing would be able to put up much of a fight, right? Normally it wouldn't, unless you fit it in line with its bonuses, making this thing a pain in the ass to fight, even more so if you brought friends with you (yea, you outnumbering this guy makes his weapon even more efficient). The bombs, when dropped right (and even better, in small gangs of these ships), can leave an enemy gate camp fleet reeling in pain while you warp off fapping like a madman with the nerd boner you just popped after dealing more damage with a frigate in one shot than a BS could ever hope to do to the same fleet, while keeping your ship intact.
I'd like to see this system work its way to Dust, where a suit intended for a specific role actually does the role better than a medium with a few mods swapped out, provided they fit the suit to play to its strengths. Scouts should be able to use profile damps to get their signature down to that of a common space-house-fly, while being able to boost his passive radar to rival that of an active scanner. A sentinel should be able to sit on objective B, laughing off bullets with his armor plates / shield extenders and innate light weapons resistance, until an Assault cuts him in half vertically with his plasma rifle / rail rifle / combat rifle / scrambler rifle. A logi should be a force multiplier, passively enhancing the strength of his squad (new modules ERMAHGHERD (not the Crusader, the Logi)) while being able to provide field repairs and resupply. Just a few examples.
So yea, the most common complaint I see about logi's are that they are too good at everything. Rather than make them useless, make everyone useful at their intended role. I know this idea might mess with the whole "build your mercenary your way" message, but Eve Online also has some ship fittings that ignore their bonuses and still work wonderfully (passive shield tank Myrmidon, the battle Venture, battle Badger, to name a few). A suit designed for a certain purpose should be able to use the tools that aid that purpose more efficiently than a suit that isn't meant for it, but that doesn't restrict the suit to that one role.
TL;DR - Buff each suit in the area it was intended to be used for by implementing module usage bonuses like Eve. Make a logi want to logi because "HOLY **** this thing reps so much better than my scout!", "GREAT GOOGLEY MOOGLY, this Assault just wrecked that Heavy's multiple anuses (anii?)!", "HOLY SHITTING DICKNIPPLES, my Scout can see everything, and no one is shooting back at me!"
Disclaimer - Upon hitting preview, some words were not blocked. Know that I spelled each word out in its proper English spelling and in no way attempted to use alternate characters to evade the filter. "Shitting Dicknipples", therefore, is fine.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4649
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 07:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Hmmm no nerfing, skipping re-balancing and going straight for universal buffs. Good... very good...
Balancing would be a step in the wrong direction. The classes need to be unbalanced for any semblance of a "tactical" shooter to exist. Choose your OP-ness - Seeing everything miles away, destroying an enemy with a passive glare, turning the merc next to you into an invincible wrecking machine, the ability to make bullets have the impact of a butterfly landing daintily on top of a fluffy kitten...
The game can be fun if everyone is overpowered. When everyone is overpowered, no one will be overpowered, and making the right tactical decisions (what gear, where, and what situation am I trying to counter) will make this game the thinking mans shooter.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4650
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 07:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Luna Angelo wrote:I like this. I would back this, if it were to happen.
Incidentally, that Nemesis just raised my respect of the Gallente by 15%. That thing sounds like a ton of fun to play.
It even comes with racial variants!
Caldari Manticore
Minmatar Hound
Amarr Purifier
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4651
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mregomies wrote:Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Not a another nerf logi QQ.
Read the TL;DR if you must, but the thread actually calls to buff the logi (along with everything else), not nerf it.
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:CCP have stated that they'd like to do this but some quirk with the code means they can't give logis equipment bonuses.
I don't think the current balance is too far off (the sidearm counterbalances the slot difference, IMO), but it would be reasonable to give most assault suits a little extra CPU/PG (10-20 CPU/2-3 PG).
If they have to nerf combat logis, making them fill their equipment slots would be the best option.
I don't want that though. A slight PG / CPU buff isn't what any of the suits need. It needs a role to fill. A bit more damage or tank isn't going to make you feel OP, only a little less mediocre than the current setup.
The suits need a defining bonus, something that says "This suit specializes in this, and does a damn fine good job of it".
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4651
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:If this means I can still run my mass driver while keeping my hacking bonus, then I'm all for it. The only problem with your idea is that it's going to take forever for everything to be carefully set up. With for the sake of argument, only a third of our core content out, establishing that perfect imbalance your suggesting could take years to achieve. CCP tends to favor incomparables since their games follow a perpetual design format so they can cheat the system a bit, but the tagging system still has to be perfected to set up proper bonuses while re-balancing certain suits to give them better defined roles, not just by frame, but by racial properties. For example, a Minmatar heavy/sentinel should be a front line suppressive juggernaut while a Caldari scout could be better groomed for sniping. Everything right now is way too redundant and it leads to the dropsuit imbalance we're experiencing. The reason why I've been opposed to nerfing logis is because I feel like they're the only suit that CCP did right for every race (post CaLogi nerf) and I want every suit to be as attractive as logistics rather than just better by comparison.
I'd still much prefer that they begin working towards this system than spending their effort in a constant rebalance phase, chasing the FotM setups. I don't see any opposition in your post (which is nice :D) aside from the fact that this would take a lot of time to get going, especially since we don't have all of the content released yet.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4652
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:I'm not going to contribute in any way to this thread.
Brutix looks like a helmet and that's badass.
And the Dominix looks like a shoe.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4652
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:bleeding out faster than Miley Cyrus at the Source Awards.
All my likes.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4652
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Hmmm no nerfing, skipping re-balancing and going straight for universal buffs. Good... very good... Balancing would be a step in the wrong direction. The classes need to be unbalanced for any semblance of a "tactical" shooter to exist. Choose your OP-ness - Seeing everything miles away, destroying an enemy with a passive glare, turning the merc next to you into an invincible wrecking machine, the ability to make bullets have the impact of a butterfly landing daintily on top of a fluffy kitten... The game can be fun if everyone is overpowered. When everyone is overpowered, no one will be overpowered, and making the right tactical decisions (what gear, where, and what situation am I trying to counter) will make this game the thinking mans shooter. An imbalance is exactly why we have problems with every major release. Last time around it was the Caldari Assault with two equipment slots and a crappy Minminatar Logics. Now we have better Logistic choices over Assaults. I used to play Warmachine and that is a game that follows your OP-ness philosophy. Everything was broken in its own way. As such it had balance since no one was getting shafted. This concept isn't new to me. If we have a choice between re-balancing or nerfing I prefer the former. Mainly because I don't see CCP going through the effort adding four or more suit bonuses on top of the first two. Even if they did go for the suit boosting don't be surprised if still end up with an Alpha Suit that's a winner above all the others. I still like the OP-ness concept. Not sure why my reply came across as a disagreement.
It didn't come across as disagreement. I was using it to help strengthen my argument :D Sorry if that came off as a bit retaliatory.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4652
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 08:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:Mregomies wrote:Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Not a another nerf logi QQ. Read the TL;DR if you must, but the thread actually calls to buff the logi (along with everything else), not nerf it. Ryme Intrinseca wrote:CCP have stated that they'd like to do this but some quirk with the code means they can't give logis equipment bonuses.
I don't think the current balance is too far off (the sidearm counterbalances the slot difference, IMO), but it would be reasonable to give most assault suits a little extra CPU/PG (10-20 CPU/2-3 PG).
If they have to nerf combat logis, making them fill their equipment slots would be the best option. I don't want that though. A slight PG / CPU buff isn't what any of the suits need. It needs a role to fill. A bit more damage or tank isn't going to make you feel OP, only a little less mediocre than the current setup. You realize a cal or min assault basically has to waste a slot on a CPU extender to fit decent weapons and modules at proto level? PG/CPU is the one thing holding them back from being good at their role, assaulting. Quote:The suits need a defining bonus, something that says "This suit specializes in this, and does a damn fine good job of it". As I said, CCP are on record saying they are unable to give equipment bonuses for technical reasons. What other kind of bonus did you have in mind for logis?
I can't honestly believe that there is no way to work around such a limitation. I'm not "an It professional of 50+ years and speaking from experience", but I do have a few certifications that directly relate to coding (primarily with databases, but I digress), and there is always a way to tell the computer what you want it to do. Sometimes you just have to get a bit uncomfortable to do it.
As for the other point, a PG / CPU buff isn't fixing the problem of every suit competing for the same role of "slayer" as it has ever so affectionately been named. I'm looking to diversify all suits, not buff the Assault alone. That would be a topic for a different thread.
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4653
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 17:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
8213 wrote:How about letting my Scout have an HMG?
Then Logis can have all the slots they want...
This game is about choices isn't it?
... Why the hell would anyone want to use one of those, let alone on a scout...
Never forget
Level 4 Forum Warrior
King of airborne swine.
|
|
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
4686
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 16:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Logi nerf confirmed
Taking bets on whether or not the fix is a slot reduction / resource nerf, and shifts the FotM elsewhere rather than fix the problem of defining "classes" by slot counts and resource pools.
Never forget
How to fix the Logi
|
|
|
| |
|