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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
919
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Posted - 2013.11.20 20:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tallen here, Logi from the start of Chrome and Gal Logi since Uprising.
There has been a lot of talk about how the logi suit is the top killer, and seeing as how it is the most popular choice for proto pub stompers, I'd have to agree. Yet the argument comes from the wrong direction, it's not "Logis are too good at killing" instead it should be "assaults aren't worth it". Setting aside the issue of TTK for now, something that is somewhat balancing pubs but needs to be addressed. *cough* take off the arbitrary 10% damage bonus *cough*
Every suit has something unique
Sentinels: Can use heavy Weapons
Commandos: 2 light weapons
Scout: Fast and harder to detect
Logi: Lots of equipment slots
Assaults: ............logi with sidearm and less equipment
I thought about this while considering speccing into Gallente Assault, I've started pushing more into a slayer role recently and I figured it would be the ideal choice from an suit role perspective. This is not so.
The fitting bonus is nice, but without a hybrid sidearm it is nothing in comparison to the logi bonus for equipment. I've also grown fond of my armor passive repair that gives all my logi suits +5 reps, and as an armor tanker wouldn't be able to use the shield bonus for much. Also the very nature of armor tanking means I'll be slower, so it doesn't make much of a difference if the assault has a slightly higher speed. Unless of course one was to speed tank the assault, which is not a crazy idea. As for the slot layout, it's fair, though I don't see why a logi should have 5 lows and an assault 4. The reduced reduction in CPU and PG can somewhat be justified by the high cost of equipment for the logi.
So why spec into the Gallente Assault? I feel as though these suits were balanced at standard level where as most players judge them at proto. I also feel they spent more effort balancing classes with each other instead of within one race. Balancing the Assault and the Logi is just as (if not more) important than balancing across races.
TL;DR Read the title.
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1487
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Posted - 2013.11.20 20:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've been with it since the start, and even with the armour buff it's just plain not great. It works, it will get the job done and can be useful when attacking a objective especially with a Logi.
Fact of the matter is, even at proto you can never get above 500 armour and 10-12 healing per sec with Max skills. Problem is, most other suits can run a few plates and get just as close to that amount of hp and not need reps since they relay on shields anyway.
I love the suit, and I wish more people would use it so CCP can understand and hear us out. but I just can't fully recommend the suit without the disclaimer above. You are right though, a Gal Logi can do everything we do minus a side arm(and the speed difference, like you say is not that much different since you have to use armour plates anyway)
Now, all that being said. The suit is still enjoyable, well to me at least.
You can fit any AR, sniper or shotgun(not to mention the rail rifle soon and maybe even the MagSec sidearm) with no problem. DMG mods are needed to but easy to fit as long as you use a hybrid weapon. You could also fit a triage hive and completely forget the reppers have have nearly 1000 armour points which is really fun. Your main problem will be PG, everything you do with suit will suck the PG out of you, even with max skills. So start leveling the PG reduction skills on any weapon you use and avoid spec-ing into a sidearm till we get a hybrid one(I recently broke down and did this but I've been running this suit since uprising and needed a back up weapon) you should also consider the flaylock since it uses 0-2 PG. Bot the best weapon but it can work in a pinch.
tl;dr enter at your own risk, overall fun but the risk is not really worth the reward...unless you love Gallente.
If that is the case, welcome to the Assault brotherhood! CatMerc will be your representative. Address all complaints to him :) ;) |
Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
1624
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Posted - 2013.11.20 20:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
The SLIGHT speed increase?
CCP was going for basic and generic with the assault for an open ended suit.
Backfired.
The logi basically is a assault without a sidearm. And a better one at that if fitted like it.
The only bonus that I can think of that can make up for its generic ness.
That doesn't change that the murderlogi is much better then the assault, only that assaults lack a niche.
Perhaps, as to fit the name better, the assault could get the minmatar logis bonus as it's blanket bonus.
And then have the stats and slots mirrored across assault and logi.
For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Replication Warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
Gallente Federation
2662
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Posted - 2013.11.20 21:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
They need to change the Assault's sidearm slot to a light eapon slot and and change their light weapon slot into a medium weapon slot.
Change all current light weapons into Medium weapons, make compact variants of the light weapons (like the specialist Shotgun and Swarm Launcher), they will not be as good as their medium counterparts.
Then Assaults would have a medium and light slot, while logistics would only have a light slot.
Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.
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Nirwanda Vaughns
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
183
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Posted - 2013.11.20 21:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
the gallente and to some extent the amarr assault suits are a waste of time atm until CCP fixes the bug that prevents each suit having its own bonus. they mentioned a while ago that reason every suit has the same first bonus accross the board (liek shield recharge, 1hps to logis ect) is because of the way the coding is. if you changed one they all change (lazy coding ftw) until thats sorted and we start seeing proper racial bonus its not worth getting anythign other than caldari or minmatar assault and seeign as minmatar other saasult bonus is a bit... s*** then really caldari is the only way forward. either that or just stick with gallente logi |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
2234
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
In he hopes that they'll make it useful in the future?
No.
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calvin b
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
976
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
I run the assault on a regular basis and it is a challenge. I am tired of losing to a logi just cause they can tank more than I can. Its such BS. I will go toe to tow with a logi and lose because they can fit more armor for they do not have to fit an armor repair such as my self. The assault is a joke at the moment, the best slayer out there is the Amarr Logi. It can carry a side arm and it has a good slot layout with the armor and shields that are balanced. Now the downside, they are just a little slower.
The assault cannot compete against a Logi at this current time. The Logi slayer needs to end so the assault can be a front line soldier again.
CCP does not care for they could solve this very easy. Reduce the logi slots or give them a side arm only. Your not supposed to be a slayer your supposed to be support so do your D*** job and stop trying to do mine.
Do not eat the yellow snow
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
5295
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:They need to change the Assault's sidearm slot to a light weapon slot and and change their light weapon slot into a medium weapon slot.
Change all current light weapons into Medium weapons, make compact variants of the light weapons (like the specialist Shotgun and Swarm Launcher), they will not be as good as their medium counterparts.
Then Assaults would have a medium and light slot, while logistics would only have a light slot.
This is unnecessarily complicated compared to simply nerfing the logi.
Level 5 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
921
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Okay so I realized I could use my Rail Rifle SP I saved up and went to level 3 Gallente assault, because I'm more loyal to the federation than stats, I decided to pair it up with a newly specced up advanced plasma cannon. I put an enhanced cardiac regulator on it, militia CPU upgrade, 1 complex damage modifier, 1 complex armor repper, and 1 complex shield extender. Even with engineering and electronics 5 it was a hard fit but I played around with it. This is probably the largest drawback I noticed. I still managed to equip a K2 and Toxin SMG, Fit costing a little over 30,000 ISK si I never when negative in a match.
Solo ambush 1.............1-7-4
Solo ambush 2.............3-4?-3
Squad domination 1.....11-4-3
About a third of my kills came from sidearms but the Gallente assault speed tanked isn't bad, jumping in and out works well with the PC, the shield racial bonus also came in handy. I had fun all 3 matches but it was obvious I was almost always at a disadvantage. This means unless there is a serious tweak I won't be taking either to proto. The PC and Gal Assault are two things that need love, but to be honest I think all assault in general need love. I miss the days when you could expect a guy in yellow to drop uplinks and ammo instead of running to the closest redberry to kill.
As for the plasma cannon, it gave me a similar satisfaction the MD used to especially with the added shield damage. It took some time getting used to the arc. Now all I need is a Gallente sidearm to make the most of the suit. I don't regret spending the SP to go advanced with either of them and look foward to the rail rifle.
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
619
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
calvin b wrote:I run the assault on a regular basis and it is a challenge. I am tired of losing to a logi just cause they can tank more than I can. Its such BS. I will go toe to tow with a logi and lose because they can fit more armor for they do not have to fit an armor repair such as my self. The assault is a joke at the moment, the best slayer out there is the Amarr Logi. It can carry a side arm and it has a good slot layout with the armor and shields that are balanced. Now the downside, they are just a little slower.
The assault cannot compete against a Logi at this current time. The Logi slayer needs to end so the assault can be a front line soldier again.
CCP does not care for they could solve this very easy. Reduce the logi slots or give them a side arm only. Your not supposed to be a slayer your supposed to be support so do your D*** job and stop trying to do mine.
you would HATE to be a scout then...
*tries to flank a group of enemies. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
838
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:They need to change the Assault's sidearm slot to a light weapon slot and and change their light weapon slot into a medium weapon slot.
Change all current light weapons into Medium weapons, make compact variants of the light weapons (like the specialist Shotgun and Swarm Launcher), they will not be as good as their medium counterparts.
Then Assaults would have a medium and light slot, while logistics would only have a light slot.
As much as I like the idea of dedicated carbines and med slots in general. That sounds like way more work than just changing the assault bonust to be more useful, such as +1% weapon damage per level, then blessing the cal and gal assaults with a better racial bonus, one that makes their weapons better when they use them. Kind of like the Amarr Assault.
[+ªa¦Ç+¦++-ö-Å94]
Burner of faces.
The Plasma Cannon is not underpowered.
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
921
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think my point is that the Logi doesn't need a nerf, maybe a reduction in slots, but that's it. There really needs to be meaningful bonuses and attributes on the assault. I don't think we should worry about the light and heavy suits until they have all been released.
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
331
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:And then have the stats and slots mirrored across assault and logi.
I don't understand why this wasn't done in the first place. Medium suit, hello. *shakes his head*
I agree whole hartedly with the OP though. There is nothing wrong with the logi. Assaults are just terrible at assaulting (or just terrible designed in general). And who ever thought that it was a good idea to give an armor based suit a suit based bonus to shield, and thought that this would square with the rest of the racial suits, needs to go in for a complete psychological evaluation imediately and perhaps some medication. *facepalm*
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
922
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Posted - 2013.11.20 23:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Logis as they are now aren't really great at assaulting either, the whole stradegy is tank your fit and have as high powered a light weapon as possible. At least the assaults in theory have the option of giving up potential EHP for added mobility and weaponry, they need to capitalize on that flexibility. I can run circles around standard logis in pubs wearing a standard assault suit, this just doesn't translate well at higher levels
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
305
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Posted - 2013.11.21 00:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:And then have the stats and slots mirrored across assault and logi. I don't understand why this wasn't done in the first place. Medium suit, hello. *shakes his head* I agree whole hartedly with the OP though. There is nothing wrong with the logi. Assaults are just terrible at assaulting (or just terrible designed in general). And who ever thought that it was a good idea to give an armor based suit a shield based bonus to shield, and thought that this would square with the rest of the racial suits, needs to go in for a complete psychological evaluation imediately and perhaps some medication. *facepalm*
To be fair the Logi bonus doesn't mean much to shield tankers...so it's not just the Assaults that get an odd bonus.
And the heavy bonus is...well...terrible.
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Doc Noah
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
868
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Posted - 2013.11.21 00:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:Logis as they are now aren't really great at assaulting either, the whole stradegy is tank your fit and have as high powered a light weapon as possible. At least the assaults in theory have the option of giving up potential EHP for added mobility and weaponry, they need to capitalize on that flexibility. I can run circles around standard logis in pubs wearing a standard assault suit, this just doesn't translate well at higher levels
Speed tanking is only viable on shield tankers since they have a much better passive shield regen and recharge time, if you try to speed tank with an armor tank, you'll have to rely more on your gimped base shield stats and discard your low slot higher hp advantage.
Shield tankers are given better base stats on the premise that they'll shield tank. Armor tankers arent given better base stats on the premise that if they fit all their low slots with armor plates, they'll have higher potential hp than shield tankers. If you drop your potential hp advantage in favor of speed, you'll be gimping yourself. This is partially the reason why I think shield vs armor will never be balanced until CCP gives armor suits a base advantage for armor that shields dont have (like how minmatar have an internal 1 hp/s). |
Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
332
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Posted - 2013.11.21 00:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:And then have the stats and slots mirrored across assault and logi. I don't understand why this wasn't done in the first place. Medium suit, hello. *shakes his head* I agree whole hartedly with the OP though. There is nothing wrong with the logi. Assaults are just terrible at assaulting (or just terrible designed in general). And who ever thought that it was a good idea to give an armor based suit a shield based bonus to shield, and thought that this would square with the rest of the racial suits, needs to go in for a complete psychological evaluation imediately and perhaps some medication. *facepalm* To be fair the Logi bonus doesn't mean much to shield tankers...so it's not just the Assaults that get an odd bonus. And the heavy bonus is...well...terrible.
Why would any of this be fair at all. I'm sayin' that the dude who thought these up needs to have his head checked.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
142
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Posted - 2013.11.21 00:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
STD LEVEL: Assaults and Logis are balanced
ADV LEVEL:Assaults and Logis are Balanced EXCEPT for AMARR Logi,being More powerful than any other suit (6 L & H slots, L weapon,S weapon,3 Equipment stlots, grenades and very good CPU/ decent PG)
PROTO LEVEL:All logis out preform assaults.
Just saying. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
306
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Posted - 2013.11.21 00:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:
Speed tanking is only viable on shield tankers since they have a much better passive shield regen and recharge time, if you try to speed tank with an armor tank, you'll have to rely more on your gimped base shield stats and discard your low slot higher hp advantage.
Shield tankers are given better base stats on the premise that they'll shield tank. Armor tankers arent given better base stats on the premise that if they fit all their low slots with armor plates, they'll have higher potential hp than shield tankers. If you drop your potential hp advantage in favor of speed, you'll be gimping yourself. This is partially the reason why I think shield vs armor will never be balanced until CCP gives armor suits a base advantage for armor that shields dont have (like how minmatar have an internal 1 hp/s).
Speed tanking is less viable for shields than you think just because of the high damage high tank era of the game.
Armor has the distinct advantage of healing outside of their reppers, it's why shield tankers get the slightly higher shield regen.
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
950
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Posted - 2013.11.25 19:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
In pubs the Gal assault is fine at advanced. I have been running adv gal logi since Uprising 1.0, and my cores are maxed, so I use the assault as a slightly faster alternative. Both use GEKs and a complex armor repper, but instead of stacking 2 basic armor plates I just stack one on the assault and use the extra slot for an enhanced cardiac regulator. They both have roughly the same eHP but the assault is even on shields and armor. This allows the assault to use its base armor and the shield bonus while not losing its mobility. On the highs I use one complex shield extender and one complex light damage mod for both. The shields give a buffer to explosives for both suits. They both have the same standard flux grenade.
As for equipment it's all advanced.
My assaults advantages:
Speed, dual tanked for multiple damage types, sidearm
about 30,000 ISK
My logis advantages:
Good armor tank, equipment (scanners, and uplinks help a bunch)
about 40,000 ISK
The basic Gallente medium suit is almost identical to the assault, the fitting bonus at lvl 3 barely did anything, and the shield recharge is almost negligible. If you wanted an assault suit you might as well use the basic and take it to proto and just be prepared for the slightly increased costs, but it will save you SP overall.
Gal Assaults and Logis still have a balance at advanced, but I can't get too into how this falls apart at proto, likely due the the decreased PG and CPU of the assault benefits less from engineering and electronics than the logi. The fitting reductions help the high cost equipment more than the weapons (there is not even a hybrid sidearm), so the the base CPU and PG is still way too low to compete with the logi. The increased base HP of the assault is offset by the extra low on the logi. Also the assault bonus doesn't lend well to a suit that is more suited for armor tanking, not to mention armor tanking takes away the speed advantage the assault has over the logi. The Gal logi is the ultimate armor tanking fit with 5 lows, a built in passive rep and the ability to carry multiple triage nanohives.
So as someone who has used my Gal Logi and wants to try something new, the assault is fine at standard and advanced, but I see no reason why anyone would want to take it to proto. As it stands I believe more effort should be done to bring the assaults up instead of trying to take the logis down, I still use mine in support, and even with maxed cores and the fitting bonuses it's difficult to fully fit it, I usually have to stick to basic armor plates.
I really think bonuses to assaults should help make racial weapons more lethal and bonuses to logis should be more geared more towards equipment. The Logi passive rep was put in place because "who's repping the repper?" made since when logis were repping more often, it's not necessary now especially with 5 lows.
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
CPM1 Candidate
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