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Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
104
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
... what ever happened to the Flaylock? I still use it on a few suits as an extra slap in the face when I kill someone (as in, "You suck so bad I killed you with a STD Flaylock")
Seriously though, I wish CCP would release weapon kill/usage stats so that we can all see how very FotM focused this game is. "New Weapon? Let's make it OP making everyone skill into it and then nerf it into the ground once they do. At least they can always fall back on their AR."
All cynicism aside, I would really love to see the stats for all weapons to date. Curious how they don't make this stuff publicly available in real time. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
488
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jak'Saan wrote:... what ever happened to the Flaylock? I still use it on a few suits as an extra slap in the face when I kill someone (as in, "You suck so bad I killed you with a STD Flaylock")
Seriously though, I wish CCP would release weapon kill/usage stats so that we can all see how very FotM focused this game is. "New Weapon? Let's make it OP making everyone skill into it and then nerf it into the ground once they do. At least they can always fall back on their AR."
All cynicism aside, I would really love to see the stats for all weapons to date. Curious how they don't make this stuff publicly available in real time.
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
To give you an example:
ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP). |
Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
689
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:Jak'Saan wrote:... what ever happened to the Flaylock? I still use it on a few suits as an extra slap in the face when I kill someone (as in, "You suck so bad I killed you with a STD Flaylock")
Seriously though, I wish CCP would release weapon kill/usage stats so that we can all see how very FotM focused this game is. "New Weapon? Let's make it OP making everyone skill into it and then nerf it into the ground once they do. At least they can always fall back on their AR."
All cynicism aside, I would really love to see the stats for all weapons to date. Curious how they don't make this stuff publicly available in real time. Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness. All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players. To give you an example: ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP). I would still rather look at the data and try to draw my own conclusions.
Faction Channels for FW Staging
PIE Ground Control | Caldari Hierarchy | Turalyon | Chosen Matari
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Oswald Rehnquist
634
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
To give you an example:
ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP).
The Automatic Rifles are thy best weapons in the game for their coverage is so vast and their absolute effectiveness within the 15-90 range of the game. Pretending otherwise is silly. There is a reason both that heavies and scouts run with ARs and that is because the other cultural weapons are there for entertainment more so than competitive edge.
Below 28 dB
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R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
488
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Jak'Saan wrote:... what ever happened to the Flaylock? I still use it on a few suits as an extra slap in the face when I kill someone (as in, "You suck so bad I killed you with a STD Flaylock")
Seriously though, I wish CCP would release weapon kill/usage stats so that we can all see how very FotM focused this game is. "New Weapon? Let's make it OP making everyone skill into it and then nerf it into the ground once they do. At least they can always fall back on their AR."
All cynicism aside, I would really love to see the stats for all weapons to date. Curious how they don't make this stuff publicly available in real time. Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness. All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players. To give you an example: ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP). I would still rather look at the data and try to draw my own conclusions.
As long as you analyse the data correctly, there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't jump onto the "omgomgomg, *insert random weapon* is on top of the list...soooooooo OP" without thinking on a deeper level ;)
I'm sure the SMG would be above the scrambler pistol for example...despite the SP being more effective at killing (not at getting assists though). |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
488
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
To give you an example:
ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP).
The Automatic Rifles are thy best weapons in the game for their coverage is so vast and their absolute effectiveness within the 15-90 range of the game. Pretending otherwise is silly. There is a reason both that heavies and scouts run with ARs and that is because the other cultural weapons are there for entertainment more so than competitive edge.
Not all ARs cover that range for starters. But yes, it has a more varied range advantage. On the other hand, there is always another weapon that is more effective at specific ranges.
An SMG beats an AR at CQC. A scrambler pistol beats an AR at CQC. A sniper beats it at longer ranges. A laser rifle beats it at longer ranges. A scrambler rifle beats it in terms of damage at certain ranges.
But yes, an AR gives you versatility which many other weapons are lacking. Doesn't change the fact that within 20m an AR user will lose to me running an SMG or SP ;)
It's bit like kite surfing. There are kites that work for a lot of different wind strengths...they're very versatile. But I wouldn't call them the "best" kites. Why? Because I could get a specialty kite for strong wind (or weak wind) and be more effective than someone using a more versatile kite. |
Virtual Riot
The Vanguardians
73
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
A better comparison would be the KDR for each weapon
How many kills the weapon got before the guy died, for STD ADV and PRO Maybe even damage done before death for more supporty weapons
that would be a good comparison |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
1461
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Posted - 2013.11.19 20:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
To give you an example:
ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP).
The Automatic Rifles are thy best weapons in the game for their coverage is so vast and their absolute effectiveness within the 15-90 range of the game. Pretending otherwise is silly. There is a reason both that heavies and scouts run with ARs and that is because the other cultural weapons are there for entertainment more so than competitive edge.
Dust competitive logic: if your an athlete, do steroids or your a scrub.
Level 1 forum warrior.
Minmatar and Gallente fw.
Fix PC lag please CCP.
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Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
106
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Posted - 2013.11.19 20:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:
Dust competitive logic: if your an athlete, do steroids or your a scrub.
this |
Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
106
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Posted - 2013.11.19 21:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
Still, come on. It would be really interesting to see how many people drop FotM weapons for either the next FotM or for the AR once CCP sees that everyone dropped all their SP into it and they nerf it into the ground.
CCP if you are reading this, when you nerfed the Flaylock (I agree it SOOOO badly needed to be nerfed, but maybe not this much) you justified it by showing us pretty graphs representing its over-use. Can you now justify that you did not over-nerf it with the same graphs? And all the other OP weapons that you nerfed?
I only use the flaylock as an example because it is the only one I remember being justified with graphs. It is also the only weapon that I said "If you can't beat em, join em" and then as soon as I skilled into it they announced the major nerf lol. It's still handy at anti-equipment at least and also good for a few laughs.
Show us pretty graphs. |
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
607
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Posted - 2013.11.19 21:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:Jak'Saan wrote:... what ever happened to the Flaylock? I still use it on a few suits as an extra slap in the face when I kill someone (as in, "You suck so bad I killed you with a STD Flaylock")
Seriously though, I wish CCP would release weapon kill/usage stats so that we can all see how very FotM focused this game is. "New Weapon? Let's make it OP making everyone skill into it and then nerf it into the ground once they do. At least they can always fall back on their AR."
All cynicism aside, I would really love to see the stats for all weapons to date. Curious how they don't make this stuff publicly available in real time. Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness. All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players. To give you an example: ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP). i can testify to this. i've lost almost all hate to ARs because of how easily i can drop someone using them. let me give you a little perspective on how fast i can drop someone.
i'll use a starter fit, for convenience, but make no mistake i still drop protos the same.
i have 77 shield. a caldari starter fit has roughly 220 shield and 120 armor. i can kill them faster than my shields go down. that's right. i can take down 340 hp faster than they can hit me twice with a weapon firing at 750 rpm.
plus i've gotten suprisingly good at consistently getting headshots with the scrambler pistol.
*tries to flank a group of enemies. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
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Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
106
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Posted - 2013.11.19 21:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ok but still... charts would be nice. Show us how wrong we are about your nerfs CCP. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10408
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Posted - 2013.11.19 21:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fact: FLUX Grenades still has more kills Sleek AV grenades.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
106
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 21:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Fact: FLUX Grenades still has more kills Sleek AV grenades.
lol very sad, yet I believe it. Any chance on opening up access to those charts CCP likes to keep to themselves and only use when it suits them? |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
488
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 21:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jak'Saan wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Fact: FLUX Grenades still has more kills Sleek AV grenades. lol very sad, yet I believe it. Any chance on opening up access to those charts CCP likes to keep to themselves and only use when it suits them?
But that's my whole point. While I agree the graphs would be interesting, they are completely useless in determining whether something is OP or not. The flaylock didn't get nerfed because a lot of people were using it, it got nerfed because its stats were over the top. |
Jak'Saan
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 22:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:
But that's my whole point. While I agree the graphs would be interesting, they are completely useless in determining whether something is OP or not. The flaylock didn't get nerfed because a lot of people were using it, it got nerfed because its stats were over the top.
Ok, ok, I concede (and I agree about flaylock, though it was lolz while it lasted). Ok ccp, you win this round (even though you never participated) though it would still be fun to see the charts! I promise to sign in blood that I would never use them to make my point in the forums in return. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
488
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 22:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jak'Saan wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:
But that's my whole point. While I agree the graphs would be interesting, they are completely useless in determining whether something is OP or not. The flaylock didn't get nerfed because a lot of people were using it, it got nerfed because its stats were over the top.
Ok, ok, I concede (and I agree about flaylock, though it was lolz while it lasted). Ok ccp, you win this round (even though you never participated) though it would still be fun to see the charts! I promise to sign in blood that I would never use them to make my point in the forums in return.
I still think it would be really interesting to see those charts...but for a different reason than you
It would allow you to pick the best setup against the setup the majority is using. It would also allow you to say a lot about the playerbase.
For example, if the majority uses weapons that are easy to use (AR, SMG, etc.), that tells you the majority simply doesn't like a challenge. Although that one's pretty much a given even without looking at the charts
To use the SP example: If more people actually spent the time to get good at alternative (specialist weapons), fewer people would moan about how OP the AR is. I like the AR, I use the AR...but I'm not moaning about it because I know a specialist weapon easily (!!) beats it under the right circumstances (which you can often pick). I also didn't moan as much about the flaylock because I already had the SP and SMG at proto level too and realised versus those it wasn't actually that OP. It just takes (a bit) more skill to be just as effective.
I kill people just as fast with the Carthum SP as I did with the proto flaylock...it just took me a little while longer to get good enough at aiming to pull it off. In fact, due to the flaylock's bullet travel time, I'd say it's even better at distance than the old flaylock ever was. |
Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
510
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Posted - 2013.11.19 22:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:
Kill stats wouldn't really be indicative of a weapon's effectiveness.
All it shows is which weapons are considered easy-mode by the majority of players.
To give you an example:
ARs would probably lead the pack, but that doesn't mean it's the "best weapon" or that it's necessarily overpowered. Compare it to a scrambler pistol for example. That thing will probably be at the very bottom of the list, but it's still incredibly effective. Hell, if a good scrambler pistol user faces a heavy with an AR...guess who will win 99% of the time (clue: the SP).
The Automatic Rifles are thy best weapons in the game for their coverage is so vast and their absolute effectiveness within the 15-90 range of the game. Pretending otherwise is silly. There is a reason both that heavies and scouts run with ARs and that is because the other cultural weapons are there for entertainment more so than competitive edge. Not all ARs cover that range for starters. But yes, it has a more varied range advantage. On the other hand, there is always another weapon that is more effective at specific ranges. An SMG beats an AR at CQC. A scrambler pistol beats an AR at CQC. A sniper beats it at longer ranges. A laser rifle beats it at longer ranges. A scrambler rifle beats it in terms of damage at certain ranges. But yes, an AR gives you versatility which many other weapons are lacking. Doesn't change the fact that within 20m an AR user will lose to me running an SMG or SP ;) It's bit like kite surfing. There are kites that work for a lot of different wind strengths...they're very versatile. But I wouldn't call them the "best" kites. Why? Because I could get a specialty kite for strong wind (or weak wind) and be more effective than someone using a more versatile kite.
Duvolve melt SMG users in CQC. I've seen poor Heavies with HMGs in CQC pull out SMG in vain trying to defend themselves more than a few times... SCP is good but you can't miss a singe shot and it loses around 10 meters, so they need to close that gap a bit. And I'm sure laser users can confirm the AR outdamaging them in longer ranges.
That's the thing about AR you have no bad match-ups. Even if you're in most weapon's optimal, you still have a good chance of winning simply because of your insane DPS. ARa should be losing more frequently in other weapon's optimal. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1193
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Posted - 2013.11.19 22:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jak'Saan wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Fact: FLUX Grenades still has more kills Sleek AV grenades. lol very sad, yet I believe it. Any chance on opening up access to those charts CCP likes to keep to themselves and only use when it suits them?
How did Flux nades get kills anyway? Do they just have a severe shield bias, but still do negligible armor damage? was there a coding issue? Does it do damage when you hit someone with the grenade? I always wondered...
ECM Equipment
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Rowdy Railgunner
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
163
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Posted - 2013.11.19 23:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
I used a suit I haven't used in a long time the other day and it had a flaylock equipped. I actually did pretty good with it on some occasions. Still not as good as my toxin SMG though. |
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