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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1175
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Posted - 2013.11.17 23:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've seen alot of threads like this. It's kinda silly how many. I've probably got at least four rage-comments because of that title alone. Now, you need to really think about respecs and what they stand for, and why they should be given. Here, I will write out a few rules for respecs, so please pay attention.
Respecs should NOT be given out...
1. On the advent of new guns or suits.
When a new gun or suit comes out, it comes out for all of us. We all have the chance to get into it immediately and work towards it. It doesn't give any unfair advantage to people who saved up, they didn't use these points on who-knows-what to throw them on an untested device. It doesn't make any of your previous choices null.
2. When the nail that sticks up gets nerfed. If you are using something that has been stated by CCP to be functioning wrongly, or something that the vast majority of players can agree on (including the users) is overly powerful, then you have no right to complain when it gets treated as such. If the nerf doesn't completely change how that feature operates, especially not in the wording of its description, then you have no leg to stand on.
Respecs SHOULD be given out...
1. When a suit or weapon preexisting in the game is changed immensely. This makes your previous choice to spec into that thing unfounded, and you deserve to have that time back to spend on other things if you so choose. If this is a gamewide change, like changing every suit's bonuses, all should get a respec. If this is a severe change, like a gun suddenly completely changing behavior, that is also grounds to ask for a respec.
A PARTIAL respec should be given...
1. If it is just a slight nerf. ONLY a partial here. Try to make personal petitions to CCP for a small SP rebate. Small nerfs happen all the time, and you should be somewhat sad about them, but try not to overreact. If it changes how the item is optimally used, you can try to appeal to CCP's better nature, but if there isn't enough change to call it a full overhaul you have to make your own case.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1178
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Posted - 2013.11.18 04:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I kind of disagree on the weapons/suits part.
Kind of...
If you mean new weapons/suits of the same race, then I can understand why there shouldn't be a respec for that.
However, if you mean new weapons/suits of different races when only one racial weapon previously existed, then I can understand why people support the idea of a respec. But this only brings about one-time respecs which is ok for me as long as it's not a constant feature. Racial symmetry of weapons/suits would be the only reason for me.
For example:
Heavies only have a Minmatar HMG but no Amarr, Caldari, or Gallente variants have been made available yet. Therefore, many heavies were forced into training into the Mimatar HMG. The same thing for the Forge Gun which is a Caldari weapon.
Scouts only have a Minmatar SMG but not Amarr, Caldari, or Gallente variants. The same thing for Nova Knives which only come from the Caldari but no Amarr, Minmatar, or Gallente variants so far.
Vehicles have the same problem. So far, only Gallente and Caldari LAVs, HAVs, and Dropships exist. No Amarr or Minmatar ones yet.
The suits are the same thing. Scouts lack Caldari and Amarr variants. Heavies lack any variant outside the Amarr. No pilot suits. etc.
I thought about making exception to those, but if I just listed an example, say Heavies, people would make the entire thread about naming the ones I missed. It's easy enough to hold onto a ton of SP for things you want in the future, I myself always have 1.5 million banked for when something comes out that interests me (please be decent Combat Rifle...), so I just decided to not comment on the issue. Like I said, it isn't hard to just bank some points, and if it is truly horrid then CCP can be petitioned. I mean, I would like to get a respec out of Minmatar Scout for Amarr Scout when that comes out, and the same for Minmatar heavy from Amarr Heavy, but it won't be gamebreaking for me if I have to pump points into it.
It's all just judgment calls when it comes to the core content that isn't in DUST yet, and as such better to sidestep the issue in a concise OP.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1178
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Posted - 2013.11.18 04:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
1. On the advent of new guns or suits.
When a new gun or suit comes out, it comes out for all of us. We all have the chance to get into it immediately and work towards it. It doesn't give any unfair advantage to people who saved up, they didn't use these points on who-knows-what to throw them on an untested device. It doesn't make any of your previous choices null.
Your previous choice is made null simply by the fact that more options exist now than when you first made your choice. Had they existed back then, you might've chosen differently. I specced into Lasers and felt they were severely UP after 1.6 so I had to spec into something else. I chose ARs for the Tactical Rifle. As of 1.7, the Tactical Rifle is receiving a range nerf and will, probably, along with the Laser Rifle (my other main weapon), have it's niche absorbed by Combat and Rail Rifles. Zero Harpuia wrote:2. When the nail that sticks up gets nerfed. If you are using something that has been stated by CCP to be functioning wrongly, or something that the vast majority of players can agree on (including the users) is overly powerful, then you have no right to complain when it gets treated as such. If the nerf doesn't completely change how that feature operates, especially not in the wording of its description, then you have no leg to stand on.
I use Tactical Assault Rifles. They got nerfed once and that's fine. Now, however, their only real advantage is range. Their range is being nerfed to 60m in 1.7 and the standard Assault Rifle is being buffed to 48m, meaning I'm stuck with another Laser Rifle (extremely situational). Plus, the Rail Rifles and Combat Rifles will probably mop the floor with the Tactical and Burst. Sure, I could use normal Assault Rifles, but that's not what I specced into them for. --- Really, it would be nice to get a weapon respec when the two new weapons come out. I'd love to use the new weapons, but I'm not looking forward to slaving away for weeks to get the SP, especially when I've wasted so much SP already and still have other skills to level up.
On the first point, you lose nothing for having spent those SP. You still have access to that weapon, and noone else got early access to that weapon. Everyone is going to start at 0, and everyone is going to have to claw their way up.
On the seconds point, you are speccing into ASSAULT RIFLES. If you wanted Tactical Rifles, the Scrambler Rifle already exists. The rifle class weapons only have variants because the AR was the only rifle type, so it had to cover all four versions. They're going to be inferior to the actual racials. Putting in on them, knowing that, gives you no right to complain really. It's like speccing into the Swarm Launcher and being upset that it can't do much against Infantry. That isn't what the gun was made for.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1178
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Posted - 2013.11.18 05:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
SgtDoughnut wrote:A respec has never been given in EvE once. Sure sp have been refunded when something was removed or totally changed but a full on respec has never happened. You make your choices for today or tomorrow. If you end up regretting them time to man up and learn something new.
True, but EVE isn't in beta. If we are all honest with ourselves, DUST is in an extended Beta state, especially with the paucity of core content and racial alternates. Plus, EVE HAS had partial respecs, like when they completely change how a skill or ship class works they tend to refund the SP and you can assign it somewhere DUST-style.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1179
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Posted - 2013.11.18 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Haerr wrote:What about when 3 out of the 7 branches in the skill tree is being reworked?
Considering the addition of 2 new Rifles that consume the niches of my 3 favourite rifles, (and the only guns I have the skills to use comfortably without getting stomped) the Burst, Tactical and Laser Rifles, I'd say that 4 of 7 are being reworked in my case. Corporations doesn't count, so it's 4 of 6. However, all of the skill branches could be reworked and we should just "man up" and waste a hundred hours of our lives playing Dust 514 until we keel over to make the millions of wasted SP up. Is this somehow better because EVE was worse? "We aren't putting back your toe when we were supposed to remove your finger. You should just suck it up, man; that guy over there had his whole foot removed. In fact, he's telling YOU to suck it up because, hey, if he suffers, you should too." Yes, constant respecs allows more players to instantly replicate the FotM builds. Other counters need to be created (you know, such as not making the game balance suck) to counter it. Maybe limit your respecs, so that when you get royally screwed over you can respec.
Rule 1 should cover skills as well. Probably should have put it there in black and white, but c'est la vie, to late now.
Also, as for the whole 'you get stomped if you hold back SP' thing, I've had 1.5 million SP banked since 1.4. I still come out ahead in every fight I'm in. So from personal experience, I'd say that that isn't true.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1179
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 17:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I only disagree with points 1 and 4.
AR sp should be refunded upon the release of all other rifles, even if the AR's stats were to remain the same. If you want to run a rifle character, you're given the option of wasting SP in order to be competitive up until then, or running inferior gear & not being able to compete whilst SP is saved up.
The same goes for suits. We can't realistically expect heavies to go for months without upgrading their suits just so that they won't be wasting SP. It's only fair to dish out a refund of Amarr heavy dropsuit skillpoints upon the release of any other race's equivalent.
On the issue of slight tweaks, I don't think there should be a partial respec unless the functional role of a weapon, suit or gear is changed. For example, the upcoming changes to vehicles will not change tanks from being tanks, and tankers will still be tankers. (The exception beong that many vehicle skills are expected to change).
I understand the reasoning and feel sympathy for them, but if we do it for ARs or Heavies then we have precedent for when other things come out, like Amarr and Minmatar vehicles, Amarr and Caldari Scouts, the Magsec SMG etc. If we do it once, people will just expect it every time, like feeding a stray cat. I'd like to have my points taken out of Amarr Heavy and Amarr Sentinel so I can put them in Minmatar Heavy and Minmatar Sentinel, but it wouldn't be gamebreaking if they didn't. I'd still have the Amarr suit in case they release an Amarr Heavy weapon.
As for the slight tweaks, that's the point. If you grabbed in for the Rail Rifle because it has the highest range, and then they nerf its range to below the Scrambler Rifle, you'd be justified in asking for a respec on those points. The point of the Rail Rifle islong ranged combat, after all. If they just trimmed your DPS by a couple though, that's just being childish.
ECM Equipment
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1181
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Posted - 2013.11.18 20:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:I only disagree with points 1 and 4.
AR sp should be refunded upon the release of all other rifles, even if the AR's stats were to remain the same. If you want to run a rifle character, you're given the option of wasting SP in order to be competitive up until then, or running inferior gear & not being able to compete whilst SP is saved up.
The same goes for suits. We can't realistically expect heavies to go for months without upgrading their suits just so that they won't be wasting SP. It's only fair to dish out a refund of Amarr heavy dropsuit skillpoints upon the release of any other race's equivalent.
On the issue of slight tweaks, I don't think there should be a partial respec unless the functional role of a weapon, suit or gear is changed. For example, the upcoming changes to vehicles will not change tanks from being tanks, and tankers will still be tankers. (The exception beong that many vehicle skills are expected to change). Rumsfeld: "You go to war with the army you have---not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time. I'm not sure of the significance of that quotation.
I believe he's saying 'make the best out of what you have. The other guns aren't here yet, but you won't miss anything when they do get here.' Or something to that effect.
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