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Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
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Posted - 2013.11.15 09:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:The shotgun is at its strongest now that its been for a while, and I'm able to two shot kill most peeps, using a militia at the perfect distance with a headshot you can register around 450-500 damage.
I know this because I literally only took one shot in a game, got one kill, heard the headshot noise, and the match ended. Seems sufficient to me, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a buff, but its definitely usable. But seriously, in what world does a shotgun need two shots to kill infantry in it's optimal range. It's a shotgun for crying out loud. Stopping power is it's middle name. Right now, the shotty only has stumbling power. Also, I shouldn't have to get headshots with a shotty at point blank to kill someone. Source: IT'S A FREAKING SHOTGUN
Because everyone hates one hit kill weapons. There was allot of QQ in Chromosome about the powerful shotguns, I remember running heavy and being killed by 1-2 hits from shotguns. I sure feared shotguns but they also seemed cheap to use. This was also the reason as I remember that proficiency was changed for the shotguns to avoid too high dps per shot.
Personally I find the shotgun fine as it is working today after running scout the last 3 weeks. It is only reasonable that a militia or standard shotgun cannot one shot kill heavies and advanced/proto tanked suits. You would need a proto shotgun, damage mods and aim for the head, this can only be reasonable considered the opponent is using proto modules to tank the suit. It would be very unfair if you can run a basic scout with militia shotguns and one hit kill proto suits.
Maybe it might need a small adjustment, it is not until 1.6 that hit detection actually works for the shotgun and it have been impossible to try and balance it until this fix was implemented.
Even though I have started to use the shotgun more regularly I would not like to see the same dps as in chromosome. Here a scout could run into a crowd and kill 5 players, one shot to kill each player. Now you have to sneak up on the opponent in your skinny scout and shoot them in the back. Or use a medium/heavy frame with the shotgun if you prefer direct confrontations.
I have a proto logi and have been killed plenty of times by shotguns to the back even tanked close to 800-900ehp. If you engage me head on with a militia shotgun without surprise element you can be sure to loose the encounter.
I lave have a 1400ehp heavy, and I must admit the only scouts that I really fear in this suit has been knova knife scouts. For some reason shotgun scouts rarely jump on my back when in a heavy suit. Maybe an acknowledgement that the heavy/hmg at least is a threat to scouts 
And just for the record, I have spend enough SP to get my scout to level5 but my shotgun skills is only at level 2. Using the breach shotgun with two shots is enough for most of my victims, a few requires a follow up scrambler shot. I look forward to skill into proto shotguns.
Your problems could be that you have been spoiled and used to the high dps and long range shotguns from chromosome that you find the current shotguns UP. |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
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Posted - 2013.11.15 09:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Grease Spillett wrote:Got shot in the face by exmaple core today. It hurt but I walked away and he didn't I am an ar, 3 damaged modded, armor heavy logi and I need to die more often than I do. I can stomp any suit. I can scan, blow stuff up, replenish, and be right back in the fight for myself in no time.
I endorse shotguns being a tad better.
Cause maple should have killed me. For realz.
May I ask if you are using mouse or ds3? I do not wish a discussion on what is better as I think both a fairly equal at the moment each having advantages in certain area.
With a mouse I can quickly turn around and counter the sneaky scout, but it takes longer with the ds3. Long enough that a SG user gets at least 2 shots before I start to aim at him. With the mouse on the other hand, I can turn around quickly, do miss the aim assist but spraying wildly is often enough to counter scouts with little ehp. |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
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Posted - 2013.11.15 10:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dengru wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:
Your problems could be that you have been spoiled and used to the high dps and long range shotguns from chromosome that you find the current shotguns UP.
there is no reason to get proto shotguns, one of the fundamental problems with shotguns is that the proto ones are not noticebly stronger than the CRG/K5. Are you saying ARS and SCRS with dmg mods dont zap that 800hp faster? When I think of the damage potential all these others weapons have, and how even the milita variants can unleash similar damage I am not seeing whats so bad about OHK shotguns? Your basically being killed in the span of time by a scrambler
I cannot speak for the proto shotgun, only for the basic and advanced, have used plenty of aur advanced shotguns. I do better with the advanced than the basic, not by a large margin but it somehow gets me more kills without having to switch to my sidearm.
I have prof 3 in AR and have been able to test the difference between the shotgun and AR plenty of times with the black hawk scout suit. Also have two dragonfly suits setup with the Exile and basic shotgun. I have better success using the shotgun sneaking up behind red dots than using the AR. I get the kill faster with the shotgun than the AR, with the shotgun I can walk away without a scratch in most encounters while I often have do some jumping and strafing with the AR getting hit in return.
Even with my much larger amount of SP spend in AR, I still find the shotgun better WHEN I have the surprise moment. Do I encounter someone head-on I prefer the AR as the opponent will backpedal fast and get out of the shotguns optimal range.
My Duvolle with three damage mods surely zaps one faster than my standard shotgun. I wonder how the proto shotgun with three damage mods would do? Proto shotgun would in one shot do 39,6*12*1,25=594, the breach would do 47,5*12*1,25=712. Not that many have more than 712 if they are running damage mods. And two shots is enough to take down most heavies.
The scout using Allotek Breack without damage mods would do 47,5*12=570, with the surprise on your side, you should be able to pull off two shots with a total damage of 1140. How many would survive this?!? The scout are skinny and should only engange when you have the surprise moment on your side, the opponent has to be extremely skilled with quick reflexes to get away within 1 second from being hit by the first shot before the second shot impacts. Getting a headshot with the shotgun would deal much more damage.
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Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 11:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shutter Fly wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:
...
My Duvolle with three damage mods surely zaps one faster than my standard shotgun. I wonder how the proto shotgun with three damage mods would do? Proto shotgun would in one shot do 39,6*12*1,25=594, the breach would do 47,5*12*1,25=712. Not that many have more than 712 if they are running damage mods. And two shots is enough to take down most heavies.
The scout using Allotek Breack without damage mods would do 47,5*12=570, with the surprise on your side, you should be able to pull off two shots with a total damage of 1140. How many would survive this?!? The scout are skinny and should only engange when you have the surprise moment on your side, the opponent has to be extremely skilled with quick reflexes to get away within 1 second from being hit by the first shot before the second shot impacts. Getting a headshot with the shotgun would deal much more damage.
The issue with the proto shotgun's damage is that, while an AR or ScR user can easily sacrifice HP and then hang back to deal damage from a distance, a shotgun MUST close the gap and engage directly. When you are against prototype gear, that is never an easy task. With the Breach dealing 712 HP of damage with two damage mods, that is lower than it should be. Even with proficiency it takes a long time to fire two Breach SG rounds, more than enough time for an AR to kill you with the small amount of health they have remaining. For the CreoDron, it takes 3 damage mods just to get it to 600 damage, that is a huge eHP sacrifice, and you still have to get within 4m to even do that much damage. If you have even one shot that is just slightly off, or the enemy manages to create some distance, you are already going to need at least 3 shots to kill. Also, only a Medium suit can even fit 3 DMs on a proto SG, the scout Gk.0 only has one high and the Mk.0 would either run out of CPU or die to about two Duvolle bullets.
That is true and I am not trying to say the shotgun is perfect. But imagine that the damage is increased and a medium frame with three damage mods equips it. He can run around one hit killing everyone, it has to be balanced to take into account that a damaged moded medium frame can use it as well. The scouts advantage which makes it up for not being able to equip tons of damage mods is to get the surprise moment on your side. If you as scout run out to a red dot that are looking at you, then I would not expect the scout to survive if it is an opponent in proto gear.
You would need proto equipment yourself to beat another proto, it would be unfair to have dragonflies running around with milita shotguns one hit killing 200k isk expensive proto suits.
Why equip complex plates and complex shield extenders if you are one shooted by standard or advanced shotguns? An end game proto players has to have at least a small chance to react.
Are we looking at this from two different views?
A. You have the surprise moment, and have shot your opponent in the back. He has under a second to react before you get the second lethal shot off.
B. You jump up in front of your opponent, you have the surprise moment, but the players has started to react before you get the first shot off, already back pedaling and starting to shoot at you.
I say in scenario A the scout will win in most of the encounters, in B you much more rely on high dps and very quick reflexes to avoid being hit, speed tanking and at the same time getting the second and third shot in. It sounds like most go for B. The description of the shotgun does say something about sneaking up or jumping up close at the opponent, as if the shotgun should be viable in both scenarios.
I personally play after A, never approach the red dot if he is facing me on the tachnet and only approach if I know they are unaware of my presence. Playing as Gallente scout this works fine and how the suit is made for I think. I can imagine it being more difficult with the minja where you are supposed to win encounters of type B where you move in close quikly no matter if they know you are coming or not and quickly win the encounter.
Maybe it is only the minmartar that need something to improve their alpha damage as they are less suited for stealth as the Gallente? |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 11:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
GRIM GEAR wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:Dengru wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:
Your problems could be that you have been spoiled and used to the high dps and long range shotguns from chromosome that you find the current shotguns UP.
there is no reason to get proto shotguns, one of the fundamental problems with shotguns is that the proto ones are not noticebly stronger than the CRG/K5. Are you saying ARS and SCRS with dmg mods dont zap that 800hp faster? When I think of the damage potential all these others weapons have, and how even the milita variants can unleash similar damage I am not seeing whats so bad about OHK shotguns? Your basically being killed in the span of time by a scrambler I cannot speak for the proto shotgun, only for the basic and advanced, have used plenty of aur advanced shotguns. I do better with the advanced than the basic, not by a large margin but it somehow gets me more kills without having to switch to my sidearm. I have prof 3 in AR and have been able to test the difference between the shotgun and AR plenty of times with the black hawk scout suit. Also have two dragonfly suits setup with the Exile and basic shotgun. I have better success using the shotgun sneaking up behind red dots than using the AR. I get the kill faster with the shotgun than the AR, with the shotgun I can walk away without a scratch in most encounters while I often have do some jumping and strafing with the AR getting hit in return. Even with my much larger amount of SP spend in AR, I still find the shotgun better WHEN I have the surprise moment. Do I encounter someone head-on I prefer the AR as the opponent will backpedal fast and get out of the shotguns optimal range. My Duvolle with three damage mods surely zaps one faster than my standard shotgun. I wonder how the proto shotgun with three damage mods would do? Proto shotgun would in one shot do 39,6*12*1,25=594, the breach would do 47,5*12*1,25=712. Not that many have more than 712 if they are running damage mods. And two shots is enough to take down most heavies. The scout using Allotek Breack without damage mods would do 47,5*12=570, with the surprise on your side, you should be able to pull off two shots with a total damage of 1140. How many would survive this?!? The scout are skinny and should only engange when you have the surprise moment on your side, the opponent has to be extremely skilled with quick reflexes to get away within 1 second from being hit by the first shot before the second shot impacts. Getting a headshot with the shotgun would deal much more damage. I don't want to rain on your parade but who said anything about getting a second shot off; i'm finding that you get gunned down most of the time before you can get a second shot off and that's sneaking up behind them. Here's another example if you bump into a redberry wielding an ar in a door way unless you get a head shot your dead, you get your first shot off they return fire you die and they have 100-200 armour left.
Odd, I nearly always get a second shot off when I have sneaked up on a red berry, that is if they survive the first hit by my breach shotgun aimed at their heads. Only heavy tanked Gallente seems to need a seond shot to get through their thick armor skin.
And about jumping into a doorway where one or several red dots are pointing their ARs ready to shoot at a skinny scout is suicide. I would never do that, leave this to frontline assaults that has the armor to survive the fire returned from inside the door. Move around the building and take them from behind.
I think they need to create several scout classes, one that suits your need, an extremely quick and high dps role. And another scout role similar to what we have in the Gallente for the stealthy ewar type of role. I start to see the problem being different opinions about the scout role, one with your view for a hunter role common in many games, light armored with high damage. And another whom prefer the stealthy utility type which gathers intel, sneaks behind enenmy lines, hacks stuff and backstabs high ranked generals. etc. |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 12:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shutter Fly wrote:I don't think SG should be OHKing anything above their own tier level. I just find that they fall short against similar gear, and sometimes against lower level gear.
The issue with your scenarios is that neither of those situations are usually achievable by a medium frame. Yes, if SG damage was to be increased, a medium frame with DMs would be able to deal a lot of damage, but they would still have to get withing 5m to get the chance. Getting that close both undetected and unscathed is extremely difficult for any medium frame suit, especially in a PRO vs. PRO environment. Medium suits cannot dampen efficiently, and they cannot reliably speed tank. Getting in close is hard enough as it is.
For the scouts, they don't apply damage wise. You are still assuming that the SG will be able to 2HK from behind, but with a scout's limited fitting, that very likely won't be the case. For the second, I agree that it isn't how a scout should be getting most of their kills, but it still should be a matter of getting 2 shots off, as 3 is obscenely difficult in most situations.
The Gallente is definitely much better than the Minmatar at this. I don't think that issue is with the weapon, it is the suit itself that needs readjustment. The Gallente is already difficult to reliably kill with the SG, only a select few are able to consistently pull it off. I can't really give much of a verdict on scouts, as I am just recently starting to skill into a Gal scout, as I am tired of trying to make the Min Ass a viable shotgun suit.
The standard breach shotgun gets allot of kills, it only have 2 shots meaning every shot have to hit and jumping on multiple targets are out of the question. The scan range on the Gallente scout suit makes a big difference being able to approach red dots from behind and having really low scanning profile. I usually get over ambitious after the first 4-5 kills and moves in before securing they are not looking my way, which reminds me how little ehp I have.
I am sorry to hear the min ass is not useable with the shotgun, I thought it would work on that suit having speed and descent tank. Need more closed urban maps for that playstyle as many of the open maps are challenging as a shotgun scout. Usually involves allot of running but it does give allot of warpoints from hacking and taking down red dot snipers trying to avoid the red blob moving across the map.
I am trying to combine my scout with a quick LAV and dropship. To quickly being able to cross large distances, it is fun trying to maneuver a dropship at really low altitude to avoid forgegunners at high speed. Only use it to get from one side of the map to the other to place some drop links. |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 12:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shutter Fly wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:
Odd, I nearly always get a second shot off when I have sneaked up on a red berry, that is if they survive the first hit by my breach shotgun aimed at their heads. Only heavy tanked Gallente seems to need a seond shot to get through their thick armor skin.
And about jumping into a doorway where one or several red dots are pointing their ARs ready to shoot at a skinny scout is suicide. I would never do that, leave this to frontline assaults that has the armor to survive the fire returned from inside the door. Move around the building and take them from behind.
I think they need to create several scout classes, one that suits your need, an extremely quick and high dps role. And another scout role similar to what we have in the Gallente for the stealthy ewar type of role. I start to see the problem being different opinions about the scout role, one with your view for a hunter role common in many games, light armored with high damage. And another whom prefer the stealthy utility type which gathers intel, sneaks behind enenmy lines, hacks stuff and backstabs high ranked generals. etc.
Sorry for the double post, wanted to give a quick response to this. As you said, you haven't had the chance to run Proto shotguns. From this, I take it you haven't used them in a completely Proto environment, like PC. Believe me, in PC, shotguns do not OHK anyone. That is the perspective I'm making my observations from.
No, I do my best to avoid proto red dots at any chance unless I am running in my own proto suit with proto weapon. I do have a proto scout with duvolle which is extremely fun 
About scout facing proto players. Proto players often run in packs, and I am running alone when in scout suit. I would never try to approach them with a shotgun, just to think about the rain of core locus grenades and mass drivers that very quickly will kill my scout.
I have enganged single proto players with my shotgun a few times, I have no statistics of the outcome but do not expect to win if I am running in dragonfly suit or advanced suit with advanced shotgun.
I have been in two PC matches and have no wishes to participate in more PC matches. The bombardment of core locus grenades is too much, use of office gear etc. Why do we not have an officer shotgun?!?! |
Acturus Galaxy
Happy Pumpkin
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 12:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:DEZKA DIABLO, I agree.
Something that could solve this, and many armor tankers have been saying this since last year is to make the bio enhancement modules for the highslots. It's a damn Gallente Support module for crying out loud besides damage mods armor tanks don't have anything to put on their highslots outside of using that peasant shielding.
The proto Gallente scout only have 1 high slot and will not be able to use bio modules if they are for the highslots  |
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