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Irrefutable proof that the 3x SP event was too grindy

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John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 386	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:30:00 - [1] - Quote Clearly I spent waaay too much time playing Dust last week: As many of us know my Amarrian brother True Adamance has this serious obsession with bling and wants some chromed out (or platinum) tanks. Like, yesterday. So I had a dream last night that we were on a "Lets Make a Deal" style game show (wearing our drop suits, naturally) and behind door number 3 were codes (in these weird little gold boxes with nickel accents, like from Hellraiser or something, but less sinister) for the only 4 "test" Amarr HAVs the devs were going to let be used for some new event, kinda like the current Black Eagle thing. Weird. Templar'd for her pleasure Amarr victor!
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles. 1932	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:46:00 - [2] - Quote The grind was terrible. I tried capping on a 3 day booster, it was ugly. Never want to do it again. Yet it did teach me somethings about my suit, what is effective, what isn't. "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 762	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:48:00 - [3] - Quote I ended the event with 510k+ cap left. I don't have time to cap in a beta. If you think Plasma Rifles take skill to use and are fine as they are, you are the problem.
Vin Mora Sanguis Defense Syndicate 251	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:11:00 - [4] - Quote Kira Lannister wrote: The grind was terrible. I tried capping on a 3 day booster, it was ugly. Never want to do it again. Yet it did teach me somethings about my suit, what is effective, what isn't. I capped out for the event, and the only real complaint I have is that TTK is now super low, so I lost a ton of money until I redesigned my suits. That and the crazy amount of Protostompers that were out and about. Sanguis Defense Syndicate: Recruitment now open for players of all skill levels
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7560	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:14:00 - [5] - Quote I missed about 100k Stories / Vids # 5
Musta Tornius Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 650	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:22:00 - [6] - Quote I almost made it with 25k bonus left in the pool Dust514 Weapon Range & Information
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1665	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:24:00 - [7] - Quote I capped
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 1926	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:25:00 - [8] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: I almost made it with 25k bonus left in the pool Same for me Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Ryme Intrinseca Seraphim Auxiliaries 203	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:29:00 - [9] - Quote I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 163	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:32:00 - [10] - Quote I capped and blew isk like there was no tomorrow.

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1088	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:34:00 - [11] - Quote Vin Mora wrote: Kira Lannister wrote: The grind was terrible. I tried capping on a 3 day booster, it was ugly. Never want to do it again. Yet it did teach me somethings about my suit, what is effective, what isn't. I capped out for the event, and the only real complaint I have is that TTK is now super low, so I lost a ton of money until I redesigned my suits. That and the crazy amount of Protostompers that were out and about. This, though I was 16k short on my cap, I just couldn't stay up any later tuesday night, I was literally falling asleep with my controller in my hand Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO XOXOXOXOXOXO Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 512	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:41:00 - [12] - Quote capped saturday with the same omega booster I used to cap the week before 7 day omega plus regular 3 day active = a big SP payout SOONGäó
Delta90212 Dust2Dust. Top Men. 69	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:43:00 - [13] - Quote Haha i capped friday Fear my Minmatarian brothers.
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp Relentless Heroes Alliance 427	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:45:00 - [14] - Quote I capped 2 characters and started a 3rd but only got 30k or so in All thanks to 2 free 3 day boosters ..and agoraphobia "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 717	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:02:00 - [15] - Quote i capped. i wish ccp would pull there heads out of there asses and give us real isk rewards this game is such a twitch shooter its crazy and every death costs...and pay is ****
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2150	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:08:00 - [16] - Quote I worry for myself when I hear that some people couldn't cap. I capped two characters. No.
Kaylee Veloc ShootBreakStab 25	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:17:00 - [17] - Quote Capped and made about 7mill isk, only problem is now I'm burnt out and don't feel like playing this week when I only need a bit more for electronics 5 :/
Aran Abbas Goonfeet Top Men. 302	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:28:00 - [18] - Quote I didn't play at all. Did I win Dust?
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 493	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:40:00 - [19] - Quote I run my passive booster nd will never care about capping. Grinding for SP is not worth my time. Too boring. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 380	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:54:00 - [20] - Quote I capped one char and had about 200K left on the other two. "When a game starts invading your dreams its time to stop the grind" is my quote for the last triple event. GôêGÆ+GÆ+GÆ¦

The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1229	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:59:00 - [21] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
CELTIC TARON Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 3	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:12:00 - [22] - Quote I would have to agree it was way to grindy. I have capped two characters every week since i started this game. This past week, neither was capped. As if the grind that is Dust isn't bad enough just looking at those numbers makes someone not even want to play. In the end when it boils down to it, once you get to a certain point capping isn't as important anymore. Hell on a normal week I get 585,000 skill points per week anyways so what's missing one week lol. To any whom capped multiple characters last week, you sir have no life and should go outside once in awhile. Some of us have adult responsibilities, and still cap. The grind last week though was too much.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1725	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:15:00 - [23] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. At least Capless up to 5 millon SP... Level 1 Forum Warrior I'm a bittervet, if I seem like a douche it's because of your stupidity
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 449	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:22:00 - [24] - Quote Didnt cap (missed it by 50) though I didnt play much for 2 days. Did stick on the free booster on Saturday night though and got some love out of it. My Combat Rifle SP is now ready so anything over the next couple of weeks is gravy.
Cosgar ParagonX 7760	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:23:00 - [25] - Quote I had to work double shifts all week. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 1197	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:26:00 - [26] - Quote I capped Saturday night just playing the way I normally do. usually im capped by Thursday night or at latest early Friday. there is no grind, unless you make it one. insert witty or profound statement here _______.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1230	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:31:00 - [27] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. At least Capless up to 5 millon SP... it could cap at 100 M and they would still cry, I don't even understand what they want. It must be difficult for CCP to do anything when all be do is cry about the things we told them to do. If I was CCP I would tell us to screw off and then make the game like I wanted to just like every other game company. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 453	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:35:00 - [28] - Quote SP is still the only thing they can offer, be happy you can grind!
jin foxdale Jedi Slime. 104	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:36:00 - [29] - Quote Kaylee Veloc wrote: Capped and made about 7mill isk, only problem is now I'm burnt out and don't feel like playing this week when I only need a bit more for electronics 5 :/ Edit: Capped wednesday morning a couple hours before downtime btw, was spacing it out and it still felt like a grind. a pretty much identical story to mine.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1154	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:39:00 - [30] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: I capped Saturday night just playing the way I normally do. usually im capped by Thursday night or at latest early Friday. there is no grind, unless you make it one. So what you're telling us is that you play more matches normally than the reasonable folks who feel like they're grinding... I'm just going to say this about the event: anything that leaves an entire player base feeling exhausted rather than feeling like they had a good time... is probably something that should be tweaked before it sees daylight again. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù

Joel II X AHPA 141	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:39:00 - [31] - Quote I thought the event was INTENDED to be a grind. I capped out the day before the event was over. Thanks to this event, my scout became 2x more useful. Fear me.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1233	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:51:00 - [32] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Seymor Krelborn wrote: I capped Saturday night just playing the way I normally do. usually im capped by Thursday night or at latest early Friday. there is no grind, unless you make it one. So what you're telling us is that you play more matches normally than the reasonable folks who feel like they're grinding... I'm just going to say this about the event: anything that leaves an entire player base feeling exhausted rather than feeling like they had a good time... is probably something that should be tweaked before it sees daylight again. The game is supposed to burn you out because you shouldn't be playing that much. Get a life or stop crying. Here is a thought. You don't have to play that much. Odd how that works. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1233	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:52:00 - [33] - Quote Joel II X wrote: I thought the event was INTENDED to be a grind. I capped out the day before the event was over. Thanks to this event, my scout became 2x more useful. Fear me. We have a winner. Thank you for understanding what has happened. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
DJINN Marauder Ancient Exiles. 2929	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:53:00 - [34] - Quote I capped in 17 hours. Stayed up all night from 5 pm to 10 am. It was terrible.. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 2
TcuBe3 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 231	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:58:00 - [35] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I worry for myself when I hear that some people couldn't cap. I capped two characters. Other people have to work and take care of families. Not saying you don't.... Some people have priorities other than Dust 514, worry about yourself. note... I capped on Saturday morning....
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1462	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:58:00 - [36] - Quote This thread has a bunch of suckers in it who keep playing when not having fun due to [Insert_Stupid_Reason_Here] Closed Beta Vet Reading the forums detracts from overall enjoyment of the game
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1155	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:02:00 - [37] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Here is a thought. You don't have to play that much. Odd how that works. I didn't. I finished the week with 300k SP left to cap, and I'm A-OK with what I got. That said, there were plenty of good suggestions on the forum for ways to prevent AFK abuse without wearing our the general public. (Increasing SP cap by 2x, but WP SP in match by 6x for instance. Wish I knew which player to attribute that excellent idea.) Making the experience rewarding for the general base gets CCP more love than rewarding the hardcore only. I just hope the devs took some notes. But yeah... I'm probably just being a standard cynical Forum Warrior here. Any extra SP is good SP. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
TcuBe3 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 231	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:04:00 - [38] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Killar-12 wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. At least Capless up to 5 millon SP... it could cap at 100 M and they would still cry, I don't even understand what they want. It must be difficult for CCP to do anything when all be do is cry about the things we told them to do. If I was CCP I would tell us to screw off and then make the game like I wanted to just like every other game company. Amen, You know, it appears that most people also start their replies with the letter "I". As if most of us really care that much about the other people in this community and thier inability or ability to cap. in other words, to all the people in the forum. No one cares about you, your life, your character or your inability to CAP out, or that you capped out in less than 24 hours. The is no reward and no one thinks your cool or is going to give you a cookie.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1235	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:15:00 - [39] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Here is a thought. You don't have to play that much. Odd how that works. I didn't. I finished the week with 300k SP left to cap, and I'm A-OK with what I got. That said, there were plenty of good suggestions on the forum for ways to prevent AFK abuse without wearing our the general public. (Increasing SP cap by 2x, but WP SP in match by 6x for instance. Wish I knew which player to attribute that excellent idea.) Making the experience rewarding for the general base gets CCP more love than rewarding the hardcore only. I just hope the devs took some notes. But yeah... I'm probably just being a standard cynical Forum Warrior here. Any extra SP is good SP. The reward did benefit the casual player but it also had to benefit everyone equally. The people who spend all day playing will benefit more much like working more makes you more money. The problem is not CCP it is us, the community and our ability to whine about everything and demand something for nothing. CCP did what we wanted and are still chastised for it. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1155	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:39:00 - [40] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: The reward did benefit the casual player but it also had to benefit everyone equally. Except it didn't. It increased the amount of time needed to hit the cap by 5-10 times, depending on whether you're an efficient pub-stomper or not. The grind was much longer and less rewarding for newer and non-hardcore players, people I'd argue could use the SP the most. It would have benefitted everyone equally only if CCP did a simple multiplier, not make the bonus for WP only. Now, if the goal was "reward our best players for being our best players," I suppose it worked. But I think SP events should be engineered to help out the people on the low-end of the SP totem pole the most, or at the very least not penalize them by making them have to grind harder than pros. But I can see how that's hard to do while trying to avoid AFK farmers. I just hope CCP keeps experimenting with the bonus SP event model until they get something solid all around. I know they're capable of it. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 108	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:14:00 - [41] - Quote I keep forgetting about the gun CCP had to my head, forcing me to grind. Oh wait...
Ryme Intrinseca Seraphim Auxiliaries 203	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:19:00 - [42] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. Newsflash: the people who want no cap are different people to the ones complaining about the extended cap.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 867	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:20:00 - [43] - Quote notify Webster that 'proof' has taken on a brand new meaning.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 289	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:27:00 - [44] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: The reward did benefit the casual player but it also had to benefit everyone equally. Except it didn't. It increased the amount of time needed to hit the cap by 5-10 times, depending on whether you're an efficient pub-stomper or not. The grind was much longer and less rewarding for newer and non-hardcore players, people I'd argue could use the SP the most. It would have benefitted everyone equally only if CCP did a simple multiplier, not make the bonus for WP only. Now, if the goal was "reward our best players for being our best players," I suppose it worked. But I think SP events should be engineered to help out the people on the low-end of the SP totem pole the most, or at the very least not penalize them by making them have to grind harder than pros. But I can see how that's hard to do while trying to avoid AFK farmers. I just hope CCP keeps experimenting with the bonus SP event model until they get something solid all around. I know they're capable of it. DB... I think you might be off track. I totally understand the postion if you assume "Cap" equals a static amount not a percentage increase. We all reached our normal cap of SP we would have gotten in an un-accelerated week of play much faster, correct? So the grind to hit your normal week of SP earned was actually easier. Everything you got after the baseline cap was freebie. From the standpoint of hitting your SP cap based on matches requried or percentage earned you are correct - but that's not the point of the Triple Active event. The point was to provide a way for increased SP production which CCP did. There is no bonus SP for reaching your SP cap, they just made created the conditions for you to earn more than you normally would. Make sense?
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1238	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:55:00 - [45] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. Newsflash: the people who want no cap are different people to the ones complaining about the extended cap. Doesn't matter. What is the problem with and extended cap? Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
Sentient Archon 1282	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:05:00 - [46] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: I ended the event with 510k+ cap left. I don't have time to cap in a beta. QFT! The only troll to successfully troll CCP.
SgtDoughnut Red Star Jr. EoN. 370	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:10:00 - [47] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: This thread has a bunch of suckers in it who keep playing when not having fun due to [Insert_Stupid_Reason_Here] So much this.
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles. 1942	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:06:00 - [48] - Quote The tips of my fingers had jolts of pain under the nail, couldn't spam R1 for my scrambler. I just stopped shooting people after a while, just spammed them uplinks! "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2167	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:40:00 - [49] - Quote How to know event was too grindy? When game makes you play it so much that you start to hate it, not a safe position for players already teetering on the edge.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5085	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:44:00 - [50] - Quote I wasn't able to cap at all. After all that grind, I could still had about 200,000 bonus SP left over when the weekly cap reset. On a positive note, I now have over 1 million unallocated SP on my character. Read for the CLOKI equipment when it hits. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 256	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:54:00 - [51] - Quote Capped 14 mins before downtime. Guess what? It wasn't a grind for me. Why? Because I don't share the ******** mentality of many here who seem to see the main motivation in amassing SP instead of playing and enjoying the game. Bumped me up to a tidy 25,000,000 SP. :D
The Eristic Sad Panda Solutions 68	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:55:00 - [52] - Quote Capped my main boosterless, got down to maybe 230k on my alt + the 3-day. Blah.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:05:00 - [53] - Quote Damn this went in a totally different direction and for much longer than I thought it would! For the record, I managed to cap with an active omega on Monday. Other than hand fatigue, I was fine with it. I played one battle after capping, then played again for about an hour the next night anyway, mostly b/c a couple people my corp had lost to BF and GTA came back for a day or two due to the 3x cap (a couple others went 'meh' and left again b/c it wasn't a real triple SP event, btw) and it was fun to squad up with them again. Also: naturally, the word "proof" is being used in jest, Mr. Smarty pants. Templar'd for her pleasure Amarr victor!
Ryme Intrinseca Seraphim Auxiliaries 207	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:21:00 - [54] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I capped by Sunday (when my active omega was going to run out). It was horrible but I really needed the SP. Don't do this to us again CCP. We need a capless SP system!? People crying for no cap and they give us a week with almost no cap and you cry more. What do you guys want? What with finally make you happy? This is another junk QQ thread, you got what we asked for and still complain and cry about it. Bunch of kids. Newsflash: the people who want no cap are different people to the ones complaining about the extended cap. Doesn't matter. What is the problem with and extended cap? Grind, obviously.


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