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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
89
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Posted - 2013.11.14 02:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR: Make Precision Enhancers reactive to counter Active Scanners (when enemy scans, Precision Enhancer help target person who scans). Relative Precision Enhancers to pin point squads.
Intro: I think most people agree that with the advent of the active Scanner, passive scanning and precision enhancers have lost most of their usefulness. I've seen a couple ideas proposed about how to make them useful so I got thinking, too.
Reactive Precision Enhancers: Something that irritates me most about the active scanners is that I usually have no idea where the scan is coming from or who is scanning.
I think the effect of the current Precision Enhancers should be augmented with an effect of counter-scanning. Counter-scanning would work like this: An enemy with a standard level scanner scans an enemy from x meters away; a person with a single standard Precision Enhancer would receive the direction (180 degrees) of the scan. As the player stacks more enhancers or moves up tiers, the accuracy of the Precision Enhancer's direction would change (Proto level would be almost pin point, like 10-20 degrees or something).
Relative Precision Enhancers: This type of Enhancer would require both Range Amplification and Precision Enhancer skills.
Similar to the Reactive enhancers, the module would only activate if the user is actively scanned. In contrast to the Reactive enhancers, this type of enhancer would provide pin point accuracy, but only would work within the user's passive scan radius. Also, the Mining enhancer would provide the location of enemy's squad mates within the user's scan radius.
Lower tier enhancers would not be able to detect an enemy's teammate with lower profiles(like Scouts); higher tier enhancers would provide an extremely slight passive scan radius boost and be able to detect an enemy's teammates with lower profiles (like Scouts with dampeners).
Conclusion: I think these ideas would work best in Scanners would stop displaying that there are inaccuracies in the scan (how the Scanner able to detect a dampened profile anyway?).
I think this addition would be especially cool because it makes multiple underestimated skills useful. Moreover, it promotes the intertwining of skills; the Relative Enhancers need both the Range Amplification skill and Precision Enhancer skill to work. Data Miners are useful on their own, but with these changes, the other skills would work in tandem with each other; the Dampening skills counter the active scans themselves, the Precision module provides a counter scan, and the Range Amplification skill (with the Precision skill), provides a better option for counter scanning for mercs in close combat.
What do people think? Does this seem viable and make passive scanning useful?
Also, I thought this idea was very original and unique, so if it's not please tell me (I'm pretty proud of myself for this one).
I await reactions and feedback! 0FI0 |
Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
91
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Posted - 2013.11.14 23:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Anyone? I feel like this kills a mercs with one PC shot (ie: Precision Enhancers useful, Range Amplifiers more useful, suits that can counter the Active Scanner).
Anyone see any problems with this or points I should clarify? |
Oswald Rehnquist
569
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Posted - 2013.11.15 00:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would do things a little differently, but thought went into this (which is rare on the forums, I think people are afraid to respond to these kinds of detail) so I will come back with another post and bump with more detail on what I think.
Below 28 dB
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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
91
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Posted - 2013.11.17 02:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I would do things a little differently, but thought went into this (which is rare on the forums, I think people are afraid to respond to these kinds of detail) so I will come back with another post and bump with more detail on what I think. I'm interested in hearing how you'd handle this. I try to make productive posts, but I find getting productive responses to be difficult.
Would also like to hear from anyone else!
Top Wants:
Explosive Diversity, Installation Skills,
Passive Scan Boost, Myofibril Stimulant Boost Grenade Throw Speed
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
2041
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Posted - 2013.11.17 03:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
I like the idea of modules activating when something happens to a mercenary. Your suggestions for modules are good and I won't go into them too far except to say that I don't think being able to find the scanner with these modules provides a great enough benefit to warrant replacing armour plates or shield extenders for.
So going one step further, we need passive reactive modules that are involved in electronic warfare now to be upgraded, instead of introducing new modules with other functions.
1. Enhanced level modules (enhanced profile dampener) should be on par with advanced level equipment. One advanced dampener should be enough to hide you from most advanced active scanners unless it's the one with a much lower profile range.
Enhanced range amplifiers should increase passive scan range by a base amount, plus a percentage of the dropsuits base, to bring scan radius of the average dropsuit to about 70-75m.
Enhanced precision enhancers should have lower scan precision enough to locate enemies with advanced dampeners.
This way scanners are 'weaker' than passive scanning modules but they are equipped in equipment which safes slots for hp, and give vision for the whole team.
2. Bring in these bonuses you've mentioned and combine them with current modules.
There should be a dampener variant which locates the scanner. This means you can hide from people who scan and you don't need modules or a scanner yourself to locate the enemy because they will show up when they fail to scan you. Those light frame ninjas will love this.
Range amplifiers need a variant which shares vision with teammates. Another perfect module for the recon scout who doesn't want enemies to know they've been scanned, and also very useful for logibros.
Precision enhancers need a variant that, once an enemy is located, any enemies near him are also located. This means groups of light frames travelling in packs have their stealth limited to the person with the highest scan profile, leading to interesting gameplay where 'the weakest link' could let down the team.
Additional ideas: active scanners should not reveal directional readings. We shouldn't know where the enemy is moving, only dots which do not move that reveal enemy positions at the instant of the scan.
Passive scanners shouldn't reveal direction too, however they should scan in pulses, perhaps once every 2 seconds. Therefore the dots on the minimap will shift per pulse to their new position, simulating movement instead of displaying exact movement.
The only thing that should reveal exact movement on the minimap is visually spotting enemies.
"When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
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Azri Sarum
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
122
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Posted - 2013.11.17 04:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Interesting ideas.
The biggest problem i see in this issue is a slot imbalance. An active scanner takes up a single equipment slot, and gives exact locations of targets it scans. Your proposal takes actual module slots (reducing tank) and more than one was required.
At minimum, you need to buff the module so only one is required.
One question i have thought, how useful is it to find where the person with the scanner is? Usually they are with the rest of the red blob, easy enough to find. Is finding them a big enough tactical advantage to be worth fitting modules to do find them? Im not sure it is.
EVE - Victor Maximus
DUST - Azri Sarum
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Draco Cerberus
Hell's Gate Inc
505
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Posted - 2013.11.17 09:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Azri Sarum wrote:Interesting ideas.
The biggest problem i see in this issue is a slot imbalance. An active scanner takes up a single equipment slot, and gives exact locations of targets it scans. Your proposal takes actual module slots (reducing tank) and more than one was required.
At minimum, you need to buff the module so only one is required.
One question i have thought, how useful is it to find where the person with the scanner is? Usually they are with the rest of the red blob, easy enough to find. Is finding them a big enough tactical advantage to be worth fitting modules to do find them? Im not sure it is. The idea seems to make all those other modules useful rather than having eyes like an eagle for using a hand scanner. IMO this would make the constant ping more risky but also more useful at the same time. It provides a reason to be using those other modules and rather than just ping every 10 or 15 seconds or so people may actually consider not using them because they would be less than 100% effective when not using the additional modules and their tank could be compromised. On a side note, I do like to use the passive mods as they help you see scouts where normally you wouldn't and I also believe they have been helping my scan with the hand scanner because I very rarely miss a scout with a scan since the precision enhancer's addition to my fitting.
One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!
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Oswald Rehnquist
614
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Azri Sarum is correct about the slot sink into different types of precision mods, the people who whine most about scanners are those who don't even take the time to throw put on 2 complex damps (the cheapest complex mods out there), which would protect you from all scanners except one (which scouts can't really beat), they literally will not cut some ehp for scanner immunity for all but one scanner. 55*.9*.75.75=27.8 means only the expensive prototype focus scanner can catch you, which will be needed once we have cloaks.
So we can safely say that they will not use the precision mods either. Also mods effect suit abilities and passive precision has anything related to these mods then most medium frames wouldn't be good at them anyways.
Scouts, since a high level of precision is usually a waste for a scout because catching the majority who don't signature tank is easy enough without mods anyways. Scouts could be encouraged to go into precision to trace scanners back by the very clever ideas you thought of. But with how the slot layout works for scouts, I'd rather just have these traits already be implemented onto precision enhancers, particularly just the reactive ones to where it shows the angle of the scan that crosses your scanning radius, also have it require that precision has to beat the scanning devices precision to be able to see it.
For the medium frames, they could potentially get an equipment that you can drop like nanohives that creates a dampening bubble which specifically blocks out active scanners. Different variants could be used higher levels of blockage but only for active scanners and another one could be lower levels of blockage but block both active and passive scanning. So essentially you are countering equipment with equipment.
Below 28 dB
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
2041
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Posted - 2013.11.17 12:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:
For the medium frames, they could potentially get an equipment that you can drop like nanohives that creates a dampening bubble which specifically blocks out active scanners. Different variants could be used higher levels of blockage but only for active scanners and another one could be lower levels of blockage but block both active and passive scanning. So essentially you are countering equipment with equipment.
Yeah this would be cool. Grenades that act as 'decoys' would be awesome too. Throw one out and it starts rolling around and if scanned it shows up as a red dot. More variation to the locus spam, please.
Even minimap scramblers. Could be piece of equipment that acts like a scanner, except enemies inside your 'scan' have their minimaps disabled for a short period.
"When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
93
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Posted - 2013.11.18 04:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote: Your suggestions for modules are good and I won't go into them too far except to say that I don't think being able to find the scanner with these modules provides a great enough benefit to warrant replacing armour plates or shield extenders for. [...] [1.] So going one step further, we need passive reactive modules that are involved in electronic warfare now to be upgraded, instead of introducing new modules with other functions. [...] 2. Bring in these bonuses you've mentioned and combine them with current modules. [...] Additional ideas: active scanners should not reveal directional readings. We shouldn't know where the enemy is moving, only dots which do not move that reveal enemy positions at the instant of the scan.
Passive scanners shouldn't reveal direction too, however they should scan in pulses, perhaps once every 2 seconds. Therefore the dots on the minimap will shift per pulse to their new position, simulating movement instead of displaying exact movement.
I think depending on the intention of the Scout, the benefits are appropriate.
Regarding your first series of points: I think I can agree that a single electronic module should be able to counter most equipment at the same level.
Second point series: I can't agree with some of the pairings and effects. Having dampening and seeking on the same module doesn't make seem to fit to me. Also, I can't agree that there should be a passive module that shares vision with teammates. I feel like modules are more personal and equipment is the team/universal counterpart. I doubt there will be an armor rep module that shares reps with nearby teammates; that seems more like a piece of equipment (which we already have) to me.
I like the scan imprint idea, but I'm not sure how realistic (in a timely manner, too) that would be implemented.
Azri Sarum wrote: [...] The biggest problem i see in this issue is a slot imbalance. An active scanner takes up a single equipment slot, and gives exact locations of targets it scans. Your proposal takes actual module slots (reducing tank) and more than one was required.
At minimum, you need to buff the module so only one is required.
One question i have thought, how useful is it to find where the person with the scanner is? Usually they are with the rest of the red blob, easy enough to find. Is finding them a big enough tactical advantage to be worth fitting modules to do find them? Im not sure it is.
I can agree with your first point, but there ultimately has to be some balance between the modules, the equipment, and all possible suits that could use them (ie: Mediums). I think having the modules not be entirely effective would deter people from just slapping one module on and have insta-counter. Med tanks would have to compromise more than one slot to be completely effective (like Draco stated), and Lights wouldn't lose much to begin with.
At range, finding just the scanner would have its merits. Especially when fighting on plains (out in the open), Snipers, Laser users, any other rangers would have a better way to pick out targets and support a squad/team. The interior module variant would be used for close combat and would be able to pick out enemy teammates, too.
Draco Cerberus wrote:The idea seems to make all those other modules useful rather than having eyes like an eagle for using a hand scanner. IMO this would make the constant ping more risky but also more useful at the same time. It provides a reason to be using those other modules and rather than just ping every 10 or 15 seconds or so people may actually consider not using them because they would be less than 100% effective when not using the additional modules and their tank could be compromised. On a side note, I do like to use the passive mods as they help you see scouts where normally you wouldn't and I also believe they have been helping my scan with the hand scanner because I very rarely miss a scout with a scan since the precision enhancer's addition to my fitting. Yes; that's exactly what I'm going for.There should be a risk v. reward for active scanning. The scan spam is very annoying and there needs to be some possible drawback.Tying precision enhancers to hand scanners in some way is/ would be nice.
Top Wants:
Explosive Diversity, Installation Skills,
Passive Scan Boost, Myofibril Stimulant Boost Grenade Throw Speed
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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
93
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Posted - 2013.11.18 04:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Azri Sarum is correct about the slot sink into different types of precision mods, the people who whine most about scanners are those who don't even take the time to throw put on 2 complex damps (the cheapest complex mods out there), which would protect you from all scanners except one (which scouts can't really beat), they literally will not cut some ehp for scanner immunity for all but one scanner. 55*.9*.75.75=27.8 means only the expensive prototype focus scanner can catch you, which will be needed once we have cloaks.
So we can safely say that they will not use the precision mods either. Also mods effect suit abilities and passive precision has anything related to these mods then most medium frames wouldn't be good at them anyways.
Scouts, since a high level of precision is usually a waste for a scout because catching the majority who don't signature tank is easy enough without mods anyways. Scouts could be encouraged to go into precision to trace scanners back by the very clever ideas you thought of. But with how the slot layout works for scouts, I'd rather just have these traits already be implemented onto precision enhancers, particularly just the reactive ones to where it shows the angle of the scan that crosses your scanning radius, also have it require that precision has to beat the scanning devices precision to be able to see it.
For the medium frames, they could potentially get an equipment that you can drop like nanohives that creates a dampening bubble which specifically blocks out active scanners. Different variants could be used higher levels of blockage but only for active scanners and another one could be lower levels of blockage but block both active and passive scanning. So essentially you are countering equipment with equipment.
Unless the precision enhancers somehow become really good, I can agree with your initial statements.
Exactly; having the Scouts be able to trace and to "scout" is what I'd like the modules to accomplish. I think the reactive modules (both the close and ranged one) could be in a single module, but I'd rather them be separate so that they could be used more effectively by different types of Scouts (close v. ranged) rather than possibly having to compromise the separate effects of each type of reaction. I can see the benefits of having both effects in a single module, so that may very well be a better idea. I will edit my post at some point.
I think KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf has a post with dampening equipment. I think the equipment counteraction is viable, but personally I'd tend not to use it, so I won't comment any further.
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote: For the medium frames, [...]
Yeah this would be cool. Grenades that act as 'decoys' would be awesome too. Throw one out and it starts rolling around and if scanned it shows up as a red dot. More variation to the locus spam, please. Even minimap scramblers. Could be piece of equipment that acts like a scanner, except enemies inside your 'scan' have their minimaps disabled for a short period. Decoy grenades could be pretty cool. I think a Scrambler Grenade that disrupts vision would be pretty awesome, too. I have a post here on Explosive Diversity; I'm not sure if it fits with my goal/message of that post, but I'll think about adding it to the post.
Top Wants:
Explosive Diversity, Installation Skills,
Passive Scan Boost, Myofibril Stimulant Boost Grenade Throw Speed
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abarkrishna
The Elysian Knights
70
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Posted - 2013.11.18 05:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
You already can find a person using an active scanner. It is very hard to miss the flashlight shining all the way across the map.
They call me the C.L.I.T commander.
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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
93
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Posted - 2013.11.18 11:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
abarkrishna wrote:You already can find a person using an active scanner. It is very hard to miss the flashlight shining all the way across the map. Unless the scan is through a wall, hill, any other obstacle, or one is entering/exiting combat (sometime where someone is more likely to not notice the scan/direction). Sure, one can find the scanner, but one can't track the scanner like one would with these proposed modules.
Top Wants:
Explosive Diversity, Installation Skills,
Passive Scan Boost, Myofibril Stimulant Boost Grenade Throw Speed
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
736
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Posted - 2013.11.18 14:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Too tired to add anything to this thread, but I support it and I like all of the suggestions herein. So, without further ado, allow me to supply you with a fresh
BUUUUUMP!
EXERCISE... EX AR CISE... EGXS AR SISE... EGS ARE SISE... EGGS ARE SIDES.... FOR BACON.....
BACON.
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Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
94
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Posted - 2013.11.18 21:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Too tired to add anything to this thread, but I support it and I like all of the suggestions herein. So, without further ado, allow me to supply you with a fresh
BUUUUUMP! Thank you! I have updated the post with a TL;DR Addition section that summarizes feedback until the listed date, a Other References section that includes topics that indirectly relate to this discussion, and a Edits section that lists recent edits to my OP.
Top Wants:
Explosive Diversity, Installation Skills,
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